is sin reletive to salvation status?

[tambi]

Hello all, I'm new here and I really dig the site.

This is a concept that I have been contemplating, and I would appreciate some thoughts on the matter.

According to Christian doctrine, every human being is inherently evil. As such, bothering to try to be ‘good’ is irrelevant because even if you are near to perfect, not being perfect negates god’s love for you. The only way God will ever love you (or rather, the only way God’s love for you will manifest itself as salvation rather then hell) is if you confess Christ and become a Christian.

Since Christians are obviously as sinful as the rest of us, does sin not then become relative to doctrinal belief? If sin is what supposedly separates us from god, then why does the sinning Christian attain salvation? Because they are sorry and believe God to have a certain nature? If so, then is sin not relative?

[Easyrider]

I find it problematic, this notion that following and believing in a scripture makes one more spiritually or morally elevated then non believers, and that even the sin of such a believer is of less issue then that of the non believer.

There are eternal consequences for sin in the life of the believer, amongst them loss of various rewards in heaven, and reprecussions on earth. But due to Christ's atonement, believers will be saved. Non-believers will not, which is their own choice to make. As for "holiness," there is progressive sanctification (look that term up on Yahoo for clarification) for the believer so that, with the help of the Holy Spirit and their own dedication and cooperation, they might become more Christlike.

what I am trying to understand is how Christians can view their sins forgiven simply by believing them forgiven, while simultaneously denying this forgiveness for others simply because they are of a differing belief.

We aren't denying anything to others. To the contrary, we seek to help them come to Christ so everyone can share together.

If sin is the separating factor, and intrinsic to human nature resulting from the fall, then it should effect sinning christians as it does non Christians...which is a position most christians deny.

I don't think the statement "which is a position most christians deny" is accurate. Christians deal with sin and endless sermonds and teachings on it all the time. There is an effect. See above.

[MagusYanam]

There are eternal consequences for sin in the life of the believer, amongst them loss of various rewards in heaven, and reprecussions on earth.

The repercussions on Earth I can buy - sin creates discord in the human heart and conflict within a person's conscience, which can have all sorts of repercussions. But for 'loss of various rewards in Heaven' I'm going to have to see some Scriptural justification. As I recall, the same denarius was given at the end of the day to every vineyard worker, regardless of when or in what condition he arrived.

But due to Christ's atonement, believers will be saved. Non-believers will not, which is their own choice to make.

I don't think belief is someone's 'own choice to make'. Since a person can't choose to be born the first time, what makes you think that a person can choose to be born again? I am a Christian not because I choose to be, but because I believe that the God the Gospel portrays makes the most sense based on what I see of the universe, and the Christian take on the human condition and human nature tends to make the most sense.

As a result, the belief really just sort of formed in me. And standard epistemology declares that all other beliefs are the same way. People form beliefs based on sense information, instinct and inference - choice very rarely enters the equation (if at all). Thus, if Jesus sacrificed himself to save the world, he had to do it for everyone, regardless of what their beliefs are, especially if the beliefs are not determined by choice.

[tambi]

We aren't denying anything to others. To the contrary, we seek to help them come to Christ so everyone can share together.

yes, so you deny that anyone who does not believe in Christianity can be forgiven their sins.

.I don't think the statement "which is a position most christians deny" is accurate. Christians deal with sin and endless sermonds and teachings on it all the time. There is an effect. See above.

the effects I am referring to involve eternal suffering in hell. we would both agree that Christians deny that Christians go to hell for their sins?

[Easyrider]

We aren't denying anything to others. To the contrary, we seek to help them come to Christ so everyone can share together.

yes, so you deny that anyone who does not believe in Christianity can be forgiven their sins.

Salvation thru Christ is available for everyone (John 3:16). I don't think it's God's fault of deniers want to remain in their sins.

the effects I am referring to involve eternal suffering in hell. we would both agree that Christians deny that Christians go to hell for their sins?

Basically, yes, although there's some who believe one can lose their salvation.

[tambi]

Salvation thru Christ is available for everyone (John 3:16). I don't think it's God's fault of deniers want to remain in their sins.

that's exactly my point. you only see salvation as attainable through one religious means, one specific experience, one theological possibility. every religion says the same thing. "only we are right, only we have the truth!" God becomes exclusive to those who believe a certain thing, or worship in a certain way. vicarious atonement, washing away of sins with the blood of God, etc. you say belief in these things guarentees your salvation. does any Christian fully comprehend and understand the nature of God?

Basically, yes, although there's some who believe one can lose their salvation.

but most Christians deny this theory. If sins can cause you to lose salvation, then Christians are screwed too, and will be forced to give up this notion of being assured of their spiritual salvation.

[McCulloch]

If sins can cause you to lose salvation, then Christians are screwed too, and will be forced to give up this notion of being assured of their spiritual salvation.

It is not sins in general that cause you to lose salvation, it is disbelief I think. Or is it the sin against the Holy Spirit?

[joer]

Tambi you have your devil’s advocate in Easyrider. He/She is the kind of Christian you want to present your questions to. The one who will tell you salvation is provisional. The one who will tell you, you have to believe this or that doctrine or you’re dammed to Hell.

But what about the truth Tambi? Aren’t you interested in the Truth.

Salvation is for all.

Ti:2:11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

McCulloch is a little more open to the Truth. He doesn’t clamp onto Black and White explanations. He sees the value hearing searching for all possibilities of an answer to a specific question.

Or is it the sin against the Holy Spirit?

Through that receptiveness to Truth, one day he’ll find the answer in his heart. He’ll know what it is to know something by faith, which is the only way any of us will find surety that God exists. For God exists in us and we exist in God.

And no faith or beliefs of an organized religion that deny your connection to God and salvation, can keep you from the Truth. A tiny tiny part of Divine existence is in you. You can’t see. You can’t measure it. You can’t detect it with scientific instruments. But it’s there all the same. And one day if your open to the truth you’ll find it’s there.

If you pray to find it, you’ll find it sooner. I’d say about six months of sincere prayer would lead you to your Maker. What do you have to lose? Salvation? Well according to the kind of people your looking to question, if you don’t belong to their religion you don’t even have it to lose.

Keep looking for the truth Tambi. When you find it your heart will know it’s true.

Here's a link to an excerpt from I post I made in answer to you on another thread.

Is hell eternal or not?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71ceaf855f

While the religion of authority may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. My Father does not require of you as the price of entering the kingdom of heaven that you should force yourself to subscribe to a belief in things which are spiritually repugnant, unholy, and untruthful.[/b] It is not required of you that your own sense of mercy, justice, and truth should be outraged by submission to an outworn system of religious forms and ceremonies. The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. And who can judge--perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear?

Shame on those false religious teachers who would drag hungry souls back into the dim and distant past and there leave them! And so are these unfortunate persons doomed to become frightened by every new discovery, while they are discomfited by every new revelation of truth. The prophet who said, "He will be kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on God," was not a mere intellectual believer in authoritative theology. This truth-knowing human had discovered God; he was not merely talking about God.

I admonish you to give up the practice of always quoting the prophets of old and praising the heroes of Israel, and instead aspire to become living prophets of the Most High and spiritual heroes of the coming kingdom. To honor the God-knowing leaders of the past may indeed be worth while, but why, in so doing, should you sacrifice the supreme experience of human existence: finding God for yourselves and knowing him in your own souls?
Every race of mankind has its own mental outlook upon human existence; therefore must the religion of the mind ever run true to these various racial viewpoints. Never can the religions of authority come to unification. Human unity and mortal brotherhood can be achieved only by and through the superendowment of the religion of the spirit. Racial minds may differ, but all mankind is indwelt by the same divine and eternal spirit. The hope of human brotherhood can only be realized when, and as, the divergent mind religions of authority become impregnated with, and overshadowed by, the unifying and ennobling religion of the spirit--the religion of personal spiritual experience.

The religions of authority can only divide men and set them in conscientious array against each other; the religion of the spirit will progressively draw men together and cause them to become understandingly sympathetic with one another. The religions of authority require of men uniformity in belief, but this is impossible of realization in the present state of the world. The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience--uniformity of destiny--making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The religions of authority crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration.

Peace be with you my friends.