Who is the Messiah supposed to be?

[polonius]

When Christians refer to the Messiah, they are referring to Jesus who is also thought to be a divine person.

However, the original Jewish concept, found the Old Testament, reports the Messiah to be a national leader, but not divine himself.

When did Christians begin to consider Jesus to be divine and how did the concept of a divine Holy Ghost develop?

[Willum]

When did Christians begin to consider Jesus to be divine and how did the concept of a divine Holy Ghost develop?

When Rome invaded and introduced Hellenism.
Suddenly, porochial YHVH (Yahu), the Canaan version of Marduk, with his wind and weather powers were feeling inadequate in the face of all-powerful Zeus, ad needed an upgrade.
Since Rome could also demean Jewish heroes and holy men with the claim that Romam heroes were demi-gods, the Saviour also needed an upgrade to compete.

Religious people are usually unable to recognize that all these Hellenic concepts were introduced to Jerusalem with the Roman domination.

That Christianity is in fact, a Hellenic themed religion, not a Judastic one.

When did Christians begin to consider Jesus to be divine and how did the concept of a divine Holy Ghost develop?

The Holy Ghost comes from the trinity of Serapis, Hathor and Osirus. A religion invented for political reasons at the dawn of Rome. When Rome realized that religion was such powerful means of control.

[2timothy316]

When Christians refer to the Messiah, they are referring to Jesus who is also thought to be a divine person.

However, the original Jewish concept, found the Old Testament, reports the Messiah to be a national leader, but not divine himself.

When did Christians begin to consider Jesus to be divine and how did the concept of a divine Holy Ghost develop?

If you could please give your definition of divine. I find many view this word differently. Are you using 1. or 2.?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divine

religion
a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God (see 1god 1) or a god (see 1god 2)

divine inspiration

divine love

praying for divine intervention

b : being a deity

the divine Savior

a divine ruler

c : directed to a deity

divine worship

2 a : supremely good : superb

The meal was just divine.

b : heavenly, godlike

[Elijah John]

When Christians refer to the Messiah, they are referring to Jesus who is also thought to be a divine person.

However, the original Jewish concept, found the Old Testament, reports the Messiah to be a national leader, but not divine himself.

When did Christians begin to consider Jesus to be divine and how did the concept of a divine Holy Ghost develop?

If you're asking when Christians changed the definition of "Messiah" it began when Jesus failed to usher in the Messianic age. I bet this was around the time the doctrine of his "2nd coming" began. Since Jesus did not bring an era of world peace under the supremacy of the nation of Israel, with it's righteous King the Messiah in charge under God, he needed a hyptothetical 2nd coming to truly reign as God's annointed and fulfill all the prophecies and expctations attached to the Messiah.

As for his "Divinity", scholars like Bart Erhmann claim such thinking began soon after his early folllowers experienced somthing they understood to be his resurrecton.

But I would ask, if God raised Jesus, how does that make Jesus "God"? Or the literal "Son of God".

Earlier claims of Jesus Divine Sonship* were writen retrospectively, as the Gospels were all penned after the resurrection experience.

-----------

* Mark, at Jesus baptism.
Matthew and Luke, at his miraculous conception.
John, Jesus was always the "Son of God".
Paul, declared to be such at his resurrection.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

"But I would ask, if God raised Jesus, how does that make Jesus "God"? Or the literal "Son of God"."

Yes, the earliest testimony seems to consist in the idea that God raised up Jesus. Jesus did not raise himself.

In John, Jesus says that he gives his life freely and takes it up again, which at first blush may look like Jesus is claiming to be able to resurrect himself. But taken in the broader Johannine context, we know that Jesus "can do nothing of myself", but only "by the will of the Father" - Jesus being a "man who has heard and learned and obeys" God's will and word.

So, in context, even John's Jesus, in the resurrection, is the passive recipient of the Father's activity. This miraculous intervention means that Jesus was not ontological Son of God or "God the Son" as Trinitarians would have it. Had Jesus been God, he would have raised himself. But he doesn't, and he cannot, because of his dependence upon the Father.

However, the resurrection can still be seen as a case for another, less than divine, Sonship - the kind that sent the Spirit upon Jesus at his baptism and authorized him to preach the Kingdom, forgive sins, exorcise and heal. A Messianic "Son" and Kingdom-agent, approved by God.

[bjs]

When Christians refer to the Messiah, they are referring to Jesus who is also thought to be a divine person.

However, the original Jewish concept, found the Old Testament, reports the Messiah to be a national leader, but not divine himself.

I doubt that there is a way to definitively say who the Messiah was “supposed� to be. The Jewish scriptures are open to interpretation.

Most first century Jews viewed the messiah as a largely nationalistic political leader.

The Apostles presented a different interpretation of the Messiah, claiming that the Jewish scriptures pointed to a Messiah that would look beyond the bounds of Israel to be a light to the Gentiles and overcome the ultimate enemies of sin and death.

Both groups claimed they were presenting the accurate understanding of the Jewish scriptures. It is up to the individual to decide which understanding is more convincing.

When did Christians begin to consider Jesus to be divine and how did the concept of a divine Holy Ghost develop?

It is hard to say when Christian began to see Jesus as divine. If the book of Acts is accurate, then Peter claimed Jesus was divine at Pentecost (calling him “the Author of life�), 50 days after Jesus rose from the dead.

By the time we get to the first of Paul’s letters in the 50’s the divinity of Christ was already a well-established belief. Paul wrote about it in an off-handed manner, equating Jesus with the Father so casually that it seems likely his readers already knew about and accepted that belief.

[2timothy316]

This tread is interesting on this point: That people are still trying to figure out who Jesus is almost 2000 years after his death. That were trying to figure it out then and they are still not sure now.

Matthew 16:13-17 - "When he had come into the region of Caes·a·reʹa Phi·lipʹpi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?� They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.�"

Look at all the different answers given. Even today, some people call Jesus only a prophet. Today people have added a new title to the confusion as to who Jesus is, the title Almighty God. Some even call him Jehovah! It's the same issue today as it was 2000 years ago, people unable to grasp who Jesus is.

Verse 15 continues - "He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?� Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did."

Peter gives an answer and Jesus tells who gave him that answer. Apparently if Jesus' Father Jehovah doesn't reveal who Jesus really is to a person then they will never know him. Even those that call Jesus Almighty God, do they really know who Jesus really is? “Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’�​—Matthew 7:22, 23.

We need to ask ourselves, who reveal Jesus to us? Flesh and blood or God in Heaven? If a person wants to know who Jesus really is they are going to have to trust the Word of God and there is only one book that as the right to carry that title.

[marco]

This thread is interesting on this point: That people are still trying to figure out who Jesus is almost 2000 years after his death. That were trying to figure it out then and they are still not sure now.

This is an excellent though perhaps unintentional assertion of the failure of Christ's mission. People are still shaking their heads as to who or what he was! If he really were sent from God, it challenges the notion that God is omnipotent.

It is amusing to see that a way round the difficulty is to say only certain people know. This used to be a joke commonly made against Roman Catholics who thought they would be exclusive inheritors of heaven. For Catholics felt they knew. But then the folk across the street have a different view - they are the ones who know. And yet Christ condemned those who claim the top table for themselves. What a mess.

[2timothy316]

This thread is interesting on this point: That people are still trying to figure out who Jesus is almost 2000 years after his death. That were trying to figure it out then and they are still not sure now.

This is an excellent though perhaps unintentional assertion of the failure of Christ's mission.

It was predicted that many would reject Jesus as the Christ. So it's not Christ's failure. It's the failure of those that refuse God's Word as truth. Nicodemus knew what he saw but still there is no indication that he followed Jesus despite Nicodemus saying, “we know that you have come from God as a teacher, for no one can perform these signs that you perform unless God is with him.�

Peter knew who Jesus was. I know who Jesus was. Millions of others know who Jesus was. Billions others don't. That is not Jesus' failure but the failure goes to those with a lack of faith. IF a person has real faith in God then who Jesus is will be revealed to them. That simple. Yet no one can force anyone to believe anything even with evidence right in front of them and an eye witness account. They find excuses as to why they don't believe. It reminds me of the illustration of Lazarus who wants Abraham to send a person from the dead to warn people of their bad end if they didn't change. Abraham answered, "‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets [AKA the Bible], neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’� Lazarus sure had a lot of excuses while alive but those melted away after his death. Yet, Ecc 9:6 says there is no life after death so folks, we have to make a choice now while alive. The story of Lazarus is an illustration and we can't reflect on our bad choices after death.

Same goes for those that can't figure out who Jesus is. If they don't listen to the Bible then not even a man raised from the dead that knew Jesus personally would change their minds. Like Lazarus, we can't make life choices after death. (Luke Chapter 16)

[marco]

Peter knew who Jesus was. I know who Jesus was.

Peter opined that Jesus was the Son of God but we don't have Christ's view on whether this flattering remark was meant literally or figuratively.

It reminds me of the illustration of Lazarus who wants Abraham to send a person from the dead to warn people of their bad end if they didn't change. Abraham answered, "‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets [AKA the Bible], neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’�

You write this as though you are quoting Abraham when of course this is simply a parable, a fiction, one of Christ's compositions. It offers nothing.

Same goes for those that can't figure out who Jesus is. If they don't listen to the Bible then not even a man raised from the dead that knew Jesus personally would change their minds. Like Lazarus, we can't make life choices after death.

The other apostles who were in a far better position than you did not offer sensible answers as to Christ's identity. Unfortunately they were not able to read the literature composed many years later but they did have better grounds for knowing. It is a pity Jesus didn't actually say he was or wasn't God.

In the end there is no certainty. Those who claim certainty are making a personal interpretation, The Creed asserts that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. Christ did not clarify anything so it is strange to hear that many people KNOW who Christ was.