The Law: Was it so Hard

[liamconnor]

Protestant branches of Christianity present ancient Judaism as an impossible religion in which members are always in despair because they can never obey the law. Out of this assessment arises the value of Christianity: The Jewish Law is impossible to fulfill; but good news, one does not have to fulfill it!

Question: Is the Jewish Law really that hard? I have read the O.T. several times. I have read much of Rabbinic Law. None of it seems terribly hard.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 6 by steveb1]

]

It was Paul who came along claiming that the Law was a burden, and worse, that Jesus's supposedly "atoning" sacrifice had invalidated the Law.

The early Church said it "was a burden", not just Paul. 'Jesus' supposedly "atoning" sacrifice'??

= = = = =

Right. Paul invented that notion as well as the notion that the Law was a burden. Of course, Yahweh himself had revealed to the Jews that the Law was sweet bliss and divine gift:

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?� 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

If you doubt that, turn to Acts 21:22 and read to the end of the chapter.

Acts shows how the Jewish disciples in Jerusalem had heard how Paul was subverting the agreement he made in the first council of Jerusalem, by telling his Diaspora congregations that Jesus's "atoning" sacrifice had made the Law invalid even for Jews and Jews who converted to the Jesus sect.
The disciples rush to tell Paul to behold "the many thousands" of Jewish converts to the Jesus movement, who are "zealous for the Law".

Then they punish Paul by forcing him to undertake a Nazarite Vow - in the Temple - which involved an animal sacrifice.

Which proves that they utterly rejected Paul's insane notion that Jesus's death had somehow supplanted the Temple, the sacrifices, the Law/Torah, circumcision, kosher, and "the customs". The disciples continued on in Judaism as Torah-and-Temple-loyal Jews, with the heretical renegade Paul the odd man out.

Not right and not so.

I do not listen to the voice of strangers.

It is completely accurate if you read the cited passages.

If you don't listen to the voice of strangers, when why in hell did you ask me the question to start with? You wasted my time.

I asked so you could confirm or qualify your position.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 10 by steveb1]


Moderator Intervention

Checkpoint, steveb1. Regarding your personal comments in posts 9 and 10, let's try to be more civil in tone. And steveb1 please don't use the word "hell" in an emotional manner. Save it for referring to the place of torment, or that state of being.

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[steveb1]

[Replying to post 11 by Checkpoint]

"I asked so you could confirm or qualify your position."

And I replied to you, confirming and qualifiying my position - the New Testament's position - by citing both the NT and its supporting texts in the Hebrew Bible (the "OT").

[liamconnor]

Protestant branches of Christianity present ancient Judaism as an impossible religion in which members are always in despair because they can never obey the law. Out of this assessment arises the value of Christianity: The Jewish Law is impossible to fulfill; but good news, one does not have to fulfill it!

Question: Is the Jewish Law really that hard? I have read the O.T. several times. I have read much of Rabbinic Law. None of it seems terribly hard.

A general response:

The Law allowed for transgressions: there was the entire atonement system; Paul declared he was, as a Pharisee, "blameless" and "righteous" according to the Law (Phil.). Moses said the Law was "not too hard". The exile occurred not because "farmers failed to sow their fields with one seed" or because "Judah ate too much pork". They were exiled because of simple idolatry.

There is no evidence from the Law or Jewish literature that the Law was impossible to follow.

[TripleZ]

Protestant branches of Christianity present ancient Judaism as an impossible religion in which members are always in despair because they can never obey the law. Out of this assessment arises the value of Christianity: The Jewish Law is impossible to fulfill; but good news, one does not have to fulfill it!

Question: Is the Jewish Law really that hard? I have read the O.T. several times. I have read much of Rabbinic Law. None of it seems terribly hard.

They re the church that " protested " against the RCC cult many years ago. They finally got the Kings to kick the RCC out, ie the RCC lost it's authority form the Kings of Europe and thus their Power power over the masses.
That is all that " Protestant " means, form " Protests "..

[TripleZ]

Protestant branches of Christianity present ancient Judaism as an impossible religion in which members are always in despair because they can never obey the law. Out of this assessment arises the value of Christianity: The Jewish Law is impossible to fulfill; but good news, one does not have to fulfill it!

Question: Is the Jewish Law really that hard? I have read the O.T. several times. I have read much of Rabbinic Law. None of it seems terribly hard.

well the hard bit is to FOLLOW THE LAW EXACTLY AS GIVEN, NO AMENDMENTS OR SUCH..

[otseng]

Not right and not so.

I do not listen to the voice of strangers.

Moderator Comment

Simply reiterating this is not debating and is not constructive.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[imhereforyou]

Protestant branches of Christianity present ancient Judaism as an impossible religion in which members are always in despair because they can never obey the law. Out of this assessment arises the value of Christianity: The Jewish Law is impossible to fulfill; but good news, one does not have to fulfill it!

Question: Is the Jewish Law really that hard? I have read the O.T. several times. I have read much of Rabbinic Law. None of it seems terribly hard.

It's easy, today, to say 'no the law wasn't hard' without living it (armchair quarterbacking in a sense). Times were different then so maybe it wasn't as hard as people think it is today. Or maybe it was freakin' hard and almost no one could do it.
Hindsight is always 20/20 - best you can get from anyone who didn't live it was an opinion, which may, or may not, fulfill your needs (?).

[bluethread]

It's easy, today, to say 'no the law wasn't hard' without living it (armchair quarterbacking in a sense). Times were different then so maybe it wasn't as hard as people think it is today. Or maybe it was freakin' hard and almost no one could do it.
Hindsight is always 20/20 - best you can get from anyone who didn't live it was an opinion, which may, or may not, fulfill your needs (?).

Apart from the sacrifices, which can not be done today, there are hundreds of thousands who live it now. One of the things that appears to be missing in this discussion is the fact that there are three, or possibly four, levels of observance. There is observance for salvation, which is generally what Paul is talking about. That is not possible. There is observance as halacha(lifestyle). That is possible. Then there is observance as ritual, which could have been difficult and still is, even without the sacrifice. In addition there is observance using fences, additions to assure that one does not cross the line. Yeshua was concerned about this last one. He was for fences of conscience and not codified fences. So, when one is reading the Scriptures one must be aware of these levels of observance and how the interact. The letter the the Galatians is probably the best example of this. Much of the contention over how to interpret it stems from the fact that Paul is dealing with all four of these concepts in one letter, so it easy to make a mistake with regard to which one he happens to be referring to, if one does not pay close attention.

[Checkpoint]

It's easy, today, to say 'no the law wasn't hard' without living it (armchair quarterbacking in a sense). Times were different then so maybe it wasn't as hard as people think it is today. Or maybe it was freakin' hard and almost no one could do it.
Hindsight is always 20/20 - best you can get from anyone who didn't live it was an opinion, which may, or may not, fulfill your needs (?).

Apart from the sacrifices, which can not be done today, there are hundreds of thousands who live it now. One of the things that appears to be missing in this discussion is the fact that there are three, or possibly four, levels of observance. There is observance for salvation, which is generally what Paul is talking about. That is not possible. There is observance as halacha(lifestyle). That is possible. Then there is observance as ritual, which could have been difficult and still is, even without the sacrifice. In addition there is observance using fences, additions to assure that one does not cross the line. Yeshua was concerned about this last one. He was for fences of conscience and not codified fences. So, when one is reading the Scriptures one must be aware of these levels of observance and how the interact. The letter the the Galatians is probably the best example of this. Much of the contention over how to interpret it stems from the fact that Paul is dealing with all four of these concepts in one letter, so it easy to make a mistake with regard to which one he happens to be referring to, if one does not pay close attention.

He is?

Please therefore cite or quote examples from Galatians of each of the four.