Satan and His Demons - Implausible

[Dimmesdale]

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology. This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

But that is only one reason. I think there are others.

Discuss?

[Claire Evans]

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology. This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

But that is only one reason. I think there are others.

Discuss?

First of all, Satan and his demons are not former angels. That's as myth.

Causing suffering is not beneath them. It is necessary for their survival. Suffering produces low frequency vibrations which they feed off. Nothing is beneath Satan. Anything to cause distress will do even if it is petty. That's one of the characteristic of being evil. Pettiness to cause misery. All these bad human characteristics come from Satan.

[marco]

Causing suffering is not beneath them. It is necessary for their survival. Suffering produces low frequency vibrations which they feed off. Nothing is beneath Satan. Anything to cause distress will do even if it is petty. That's one of the characteristic of being evil. Pettiness to cause misery. All these bad human characteristics come from Satan.

And we know the secrets of demonology from where? It is one thing to write children's books about trolls and grumpy gnomes, quite another to state details of Satanic psychology as if they were fresh from the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 11 by Claire Evans]


"First of all, Satan and his demons are not former angels. That's as myth.

Causing suffering is not beneath them. It is necessary for their survival."

Above everything else, the aim is separation from God
and making humans as one of them, evil and blasphemous.

We don't need faith to believe this.
We witness demonic and satanic behaviour every day.
We love it so much that we have erected temples in their honor.

[ttruscott]

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the result of human frailty and psychology.

Since the demons fell into sin by their free will well before any so called human impulses were created it would suggest that their willingness to rebel against the claims of YHWH to be their GOD to the point that if HE ever proved HE was their GOD they knew they would end in hell, was a full commitment and not some passing fancy. When they were thrown to the Earth by the army of GOD led by Michael, it is most probable they brought an even greater hatred with them than they had before this degradation.

As for why they hate humans and love to corrupt them, it is written in the parable of the good but sinful seed and the tares that the weeds/tares should not be pulled up lest that rip out the good seed also but they should live with the good seed until the harvest, the time of maturity of the good seed. This reinforces the idea that the good seed are sinful as the judgment will harm (rip out) only sinners and it tells us that the judgement has been postponed until the last sinful good seed should become mature, that is righteous in holiness and heaven ready.

Holiness is being in total accord with the character and therefore the plans of GOD so the time of the end of the postponement of the judgement will be the time of full accord of all HIS elect, the holy by choice and the repentant redeemed sinners, with HIS plan for the judgement day against the non-elect reprobate tares.

It is also written that the demons know GOD and shudder and they also know that their time of torment is coming...with the holiness of the sinful elect humans. Therefore it behooves them to degrade the elect with temptation so as to keep them sinful as long as possible. You whitewash the evil of the demons by claiming it is a foolish, unnecessary pastime that is beneath them...but as a strategy for keeping the day of the Judgment of GOD at bay, postponed for thousands of years, it has been working pretty good. So there is strong practical reason for their evil seductions of Christians as well as their ordinary sadistic impulses you mention.

This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from?

You don't perceive the source because you reject the source as invalid. Christianity contends that when sin is chosen, the mind is altered by that sin so as to become enslaved by the addictive quality of evil. The mind is clouded and the desires of the heart are seduced by the nature of evil itself.

All sinners know the truth but will always suppress / repress than knowledge because they love evil more, Rom 1, unless GOD's mercy brings them out of their enslavement by their rebirth.

Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

1. Angels are brilliant because they have chosen to never sin but chose to become holy.
2. No one knew "all the consequences of their actions," they only knew the claims YHWH made about the consequences.

Since you are correct that no one would rebel if they had the proof of HIS deity and the proof of hell for rebellion but some indeed did rebel so we can logically contend that they were in fact ignorant of the actual consequence and were only told of the probable consequences...which entails putting their faith in YHWH as telling them the truth.

Without proof it was easy for some to reject HIS claim to be our GOD as a false claim and HIS promises of election and salvation for any and all sin as the lies of a false god. So certain were they that they put their faith in believing these lies about HIM, rejecting even the method that the elect used of first accepting HIS deity to be safe from hell and only then rebelling, going their own way which caused the postponement of the judgement.

By this method of giving all those created in HIS image the free will choice to accept or reject HIM as their GOD ensured that no one was forced to be in heaven as HIS Bride who did not accept to be there by their free will, ie, not forced by a proof of hell. Only those who thought it sounded like a good idea, even if only better than the possibility of hell, followed this plan of HIS.


I hope this helped...

[Monta]

[Replying to post 14 by ttruscott]


"Without proof it was easy for some to reject HIS claim to be our GOD as a false claim and HIS promises of election and salvation for any and all sin as the lies of a false god. So certain were they that they put their faith in believing these lies about HIM, rejecting even the method that the elect used of first accepting HIS deity to be safe from hell and only then rebelling, going their own way which caused the postponement of the judgement."

All the proof will not help if there is no love.

Our loves drive us towards that which is good,
or towards that which is destructive/evil.

Love God, love truth and goodness.

[brianbbs67]

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology. This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

But that is only one reason. I think there are others.

Discuss?

First of all, Satan and his demons are not former angels. That's as myth.

.

What myth? They are the fallen of the Host. "the Sublime Seraphin said I will make a throne up high, like God and be the same as God. Michael(whose name was different before God renamed him and a lower messenger ) Said Who said they are like unto God?" Then the melee began and the rebels were cast out. Its an old Hebrew story. By the way, Mikael means like unto God. God renamed him by his words and actions. Also, keep in mind the word angel simply means messenger, whether divine or not. Circumstances dictate that.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by 7homas]

Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology.

Why are sadistic impulses limited to one species that has free will? I see no reason why the pleasure of power should be solely available to one species endowed with free will, humans..

If angels have free will, then the temptation to exercise this in a manner that resists the true way to happiness: i.e., humility, must be not less than humans, but more, as they are more powerful (i.e., not liable to the frailty that accompanies our mortal flesh).


St. Paul says we will "one day judge the angels". This implies that man was destined to have authority over angels. And if angels preceded man in creation, well, I can understand only too well why some angels would be a bit vexed in this.

[Claire Evans]

The existence of demons and an actual Satan is implausible due to the following:

Rebelling against God and deceiving humanity would not gratify them in the way we think. While it is believed that causing humans to fall into sin through temptations and the like would satisfy some sadistic impulse in demons, I think that, on the contrary, such spiritual beings would find it beneath them to engage in this type of activity. They would find it demeaning to themselves and would not derive any real pleasure from it. Sadistic impulses seem all too very human and are the
result of human frailty and psychology. This is why we often pity evil people because of their gross violation of their's and other's human rights. If demons once were such glorious creatures as the angels who did not fall, wherefrom would this low, scumy, sadistic impulse to deceive and destroy souls come from? Where did the very desire to rebel against God come from? Being as brilliant as angels, and foreknowing all the consequences of their actions, the resolve to sin would be as non-existent as the inclination, in my own opinion.

But that is only one reason. I think there are others.

Discuss?

First of all, Satan and his demons are not former angels. That's as myth.

.

What myth? They are the fallen of the Host. "the Sublime Seraphin said I will make a throne up high, like God and be the same as God. Michael(whose name was different before God renamed him and a lower messenger ) Said Who said they are like unto God?" Then the melee began and the rebels were cast out. Its an old Hebrew story. By the way, Mikael means like unto God. God renamed him by his words and actions. Also, keep in mind the word angel simply means messenger, whether divine or not. Circumstances dictate that.

Could you please quote me the scriptures that you have quoted? I googled it and could not find it.

[Monta]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 468#907468]

Jesus was surrounded with bright light at his transfiguration while Elijah and Moses
appeared with him.

We think of Moses and Elijah in historical sense perhaps 3-5 thousand ys old.
maybe, maybe not but the important thing is that they were in Divine Light with Jesus.
The fact that they were 'capable' to withstand its intensity means they were highly evolved/regenerated, highly spiritual or celestial most likely because the Light was very bright.

In other words, were they angels?

If God can make angels with free will to live in heaven forever, He could have done the same with man. All angels are human-born. We don't know how many civilizations lived on this earth or perhaps another for millions of years.

Plenty of time for any human to become angel.

[ttruscott]

In my PCE opinion:

St. Paul says we will "one day judge the angels". This implies that man was destined to have authority over angels.

It does indeed, but not all, merely some. We will join the holy elect angels who chose to never sin in judging the fallen angels. This is what is meant by "come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing" ie, remove yourself from all ties of friendship or love with those condemned already, especially those we consider family.

It was the refusal of some elect (before anyone had yet gone to work for GOD and so became to be called angels) to listen to this command, which had to have been the first command GOD gave after the Satanic rebellion considering HIS absolute holiness and utter antipathy toward evil, that forced the postponement of the judgement which will only resume upon the repentance and redemption unto holiness, especially coming into accord with YHWH's plan for the judgement day to proceed, of the last sinful elect holdout.

And if angels preceded man in creation, well, I can understand only too well why some angels would be a bit vexed in this.

Yet if all spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time in a spirit word before the creation of the physical universe then the holy ones in HIS service will have no reason to be miffed...the verse is not talking about them. And Satan's rebellion was about GOD's claims to deity, not HIS supposed elevation of us over him, that old myth that assumes Satan knew YHWH as GOD yet rebelled any, knowing he was going to hell. NO ONE would rebel knowing for sure it would put them in hell...I find the idea ludicrous.