(1) Mark 12:28-30
One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, “Which is the first of all the commandments?�29Jesus replied, “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!30You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’j
(2) However, while Jesus remained a man (“Son of God, or Son of Man) and was raised from the dead by God, about 85 AD, Jesus began to be considered divine himself. His can be seen in John’s gospel written about 95 AD.
This broke with the traditional Old Testament teaching that the Lord was one, resulted in the Christians being excluded from the Hebrew synagogues, and the Christians labeled as heretics (“minim�).
(3) … According to Berakhot 28b, Samuel ha Katan (fl. c. 80-110), at the invitation of Gamaliel II of Jabneh, composed the "benediction against the minim," included in the Amidah as the twelfth benediction (see E. J. Bickerman, in HTR, 55 (1962), 171, n. 35). This was directed primarily against Judeo-Christians (specifically mentioned in one old text—see Schechter, JQR 10 (1897 / 98)), either to keep them out of the synagogue or to proclaim a definite breach between the two religions." 3
[See article Genizah Specimens / Liturgy, by Solomon Schechter, in The Jewish Quarterly Review, Volume 10, 1898, pages 654 - 659.]
(4) Arianism was a counter movement which claimed that Jesus was not divine himself and a large group of Christians reverted to this view.
(5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism#History
After the 325 Council of Nicaea defeated Arianism, the Council of Constantinople was called in 381 in order to attempt to deal with the binitarians, who were referred to as "Semi-Arians". However, as the Trinity was finalized at this time as official Christian doctrine, the offended Semi-Arians walked out. "They rejected the Arian view that Christ was created and had a different nature from God (anomoios dissimilar), but neither did they accept the Nicene Creed which stated that Christ was 'of one substance (homoousios) with the Father'. Semi-Arians taught that Christ was similar (homoios) to the Father, or of like substance (homoiousios), but still subordinate"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Cr ... itan_Creed
(6) “What is known as the "Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed" or the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed"[21] received this name because of a belief that it was adopted at the Second Ecumenical Council held in Constantinople in 381 as a modification of the original Nicene Creed of 325…
“It differs in a number of respects, both by addition and omission, from the creed adopted at the First Council of Nicaea. The most notable difference is the additional section "And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets….�
How and when did the Trinity become Christian dogma?
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Elijah John
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Re: How and when did the Trinity become Christian dogma?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
All the squabbling between Arianism and Athanasian doctrine amount to little more than quibbles.
Each camp elevates Jesus well beyond the status of human, even of God's most favored human (Son), the anointed one, the Christ.
Each camp's doctrines are tremendous departures from strict Shema monotheism which Jesus himself was said to have proclaimed by the Evangelist known as "Mark".
The point is, the Trinity is a human solution, a human model for understanding the Divine, and how the human desire to deify Jesus fits in with the strict Monotheism the Church fathers inherited, or at least wanted to still identify with.
I cannot pinpoint a specific time when the Trinity became official doctrine, but it certainly seems a progression based on nascent ideas in the New Testament, especially from the evangelist known as "John" and the "apostle" Paul.
Modern day Arians such as the Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim what they consider a human Jesus who is also a small "g" god who pre-existed as an Archangel. (As distinct from the eternal and Almighty God, Father Jehovah).
But a pantheon consisting of two gods, (Jesus and Jehovah), is still a pantheon, and is in effect a compromised Monotheism. No matter that one of the gods carries a lower case "g" and the other, an upper case "G".
All the squabbling between Arianism and Athanasian doctrine amount to little more than quibbles.
Each camp elevates Jesus well beyond the status of human, even of God's most favored human (Son), the anointed one, the Christ.
Each camp's doctrines are tremendous departures from strict Shema monotheism which Jesus himself was said to have proclaimed by the Evangelist known as "Mark".
The point is, the Trinity is a human solution, a human model for understanding the Divine, and how the human desire to deify Jesus fits in with the strict Monotheism the Church fathers inherited, or at least wanted to still identify with.
I cannot pinpoint a specific time when the Trinity became official doctrine, but it certainly seems a progression based on nascent ideas in the New Testament, especially from the evangelist known as "John" and the "apostle" Paul.
Modern day Arians such as the Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim what they consider a human Jesus who is also a small "g" god who pre-existed as an Archangel. (As distinct from the eternal and Almighty God, Father Jehovah).
But a pantheon consisting of two gods, (Jesus and Jehovah), is still a pantheon, and is in effect a compromised Monotheism. No matter that one of the gods carries a lower case "g" and the other, an upper case "G".
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: How and when did the Trinity become Christian dogma?
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
"The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.� - Dictionary of the Bible (Macmillan Publishing Co., New York, 1965), p. 899.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian .... It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the NT [New Testament] and other early Christian writings.� - Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Hastings.
“In this period [1st century A.D.] churches were still regarded as synagogues, whose members prayed three times a day and fasted twice a week like Jews... They professed monotheism in the same terms as did the Jews. .... Within individual congregations they continued to think, argue, and act like their Jewish counterparts.� - pp. 121-122, The Rise of Christianity, W. H. C. Frend (trinitarian), 1985, Fortress Press.
“Speculative thought began to analyze the divine nature until in the 4th century an elaborate theory of a threefoldness in God appears. In this Nicene or Athanasian form of thought God is said to consist of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all equally eternal, powerful and glorious.� - Encyclopedia Americana, 1944, v. 6, p. 619, “Christianity�.
.... "The [trinity] doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies .... It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.� - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropaedia, vol. 11, p. 928.
"As we have seen, Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity.� - p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.
“[The Trinity Doctrine] is not ... directly and immediately the word of God.� - (p. 304) “The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples for over 100 years], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.� - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.
Cardinal Newman wrote that the Christian creeds before Constantine’s time (4th century A. D.) did not make any mention of a trinity understanding. “They make mention indeed of a Three; but that there is any mystery in the doctrine, that they are coequal, co-eternal, all increate, all omnipotent, all incomprehensible, is not stated, and never could be gathered from them.� - The Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 15.
The trinitarian reference work, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, admits: “All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds [after 325 A. D.] of the early church.� - p. 84, v. 2.
“Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.� - The Paganism in our Christianity, pp. 197, 198, Arthur Weigall.
The pure Deism of the first Christians (who differed from their fellow Jews only in the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah) was changed by the Church at Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.� - p. xvi, The History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon (Preface by Eckler), Peter Eckler Publ., 1916.
"The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.� - Dictionary of the Bible (Macmillan Publishing Co., New York, 1965), p. 899.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian .... It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the NT [New Testament] and other early Christian writings.� - Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Hastings.
“In this period [1st century A.D.] churches were still regarded as synagogues, whose members prayed three times a day and fasted twice a week like Jews... They professed monotheism in the same terms as did the Jews. .... Within individual congregations they continued to think, argue, and act like their Jewish counterparts.� - pp. 121-122, The Rise of Christianity, W. H. C. Frend (trinitarian), 1985, Fortress Press.
“Speculative thought began to analyze the divine nature until in the 4th century an elaborate theory of a threefoldness in God appears. In this Nicene or Athanasian form of thought God is said to consist of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all equally eternal, powerful and glorious.� - Encyclopedia Americana, 1944, v. 6, p. 619, “Christianity�.
.... "The [trinity] doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies .... It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.� - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropaedia, vol. 11, p. 928.
"As we have seen, Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity.� - p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.
“[The Trinity Doctrine] is not ... directly and immediately the word of God.� - (p. 304) “The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples for over 100 years], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.� - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.
Cardinal Newman wrote that the Christian creeds before Constantine’s time (4th century A. D.) did not make any mention of a trinity understanding. “They make mention indeed of a Three; but that there is any mystery in the doctrine, that they are coequal, co-eternal, all increate, all omnipotent, all incomprehensible, is not stated, and never could be gathered from them.� - The Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 15.
The trinitarian reference work, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, admits: “All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds [after 325 A. D.] of the early church.� - p. 84, v. 2.
“Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.� - The Paganism in our Christianity, pp. 197, 198, Arthur Weigall.
The pure Deism of the first Christians (who differed from their fellow Jews only in the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah) was changed by the Church at Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.� - p. xvi, The History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon (Preface by Eckler), Peter Eckler Publ., 1916.
Re: How and when did the Trinity become Christian dogma?
Post #4RESPONSE:tigger2 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
"The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.� - Dictionary of the Bible (Macmillan Publishing Co., New York, 1965), p. 899.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian .... It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the NT [New Testament] and other early Christian writings.� - Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Hastings.
“In this period [1st century A.D.] churches were still regarded as synagogues, whose members prayed three times a day and fasted twice a week like Jews... They professed monotheism in the same terms as did the Jews. .... Within individual congregations they continued to think, argue, and act like their Jewish counterparts.� - pp. 121-122, The Rise of Christianity, W. H. C. Frend (trinitarian), 1985, Fortress Press.
“Speculative thought began to analyze the divine nature until in the 4th century an elaborate theory of a threefoldness in God appears. In this Nicene or Athanasian form of thought God is said to consist of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all equally eternal, powerful and glorious.� - Encyclopedia Americana, 1944, v. 6, p. 619, “Christianity�.
.... "The [trinity] doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies .... It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.� - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropaedia, vol. 11, p. 928.
"As we have seen, Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity.� - p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.
“[The Trinity Doctrine] is not ... directly and immediately the word of God.� - (p. 304) “The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples for over 100 years], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.� - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.
Cardinal Newman wrote that the Christian creeds before Constantine’s time (4th century A. D.) did not make any mention of a trinity understanding. “They make mention indeed of a Three; but that there is any mystery in the doctrine, that they are coequal, co-eternal, all increate, all omnipotent, all incomprehensible, is not stated, and never could be gathered from them.� - The Development of Christian Doctrine, p. 15.
The trinitarian reference work, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, admits: “All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds [after 325 A. D.] of the early church.� - p. 84, v. 2.
“Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan.� - The Paganism in our Christianity, pp. 197, 198, Arthur Weigall.
The pure Deism of the first Christians (who differed from their fellow Jews only in the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah) was changed by the Church at Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.� - p. xvi, The History of Christianity, Edward Gibbon (Preface by Eckler), Peter Eckler Publ., 1916.
Excellent historical research! My compliments!
Polonius
Re: How and when did the Trinity become Christian dogma?
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by polonius.advice]
Thank you!
“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity ... derives no support from the language of Justin [Justin Martyr - died ca. 165 A. D.]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and ... Holy Spirit, but not as coequal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.� - The Church of the First Three Centuries.
“Justin [Justin Martyr, ‘the best known’ of the Apologists] and the other Apologists therefore taught that the Son is a creature. He is a high creature, a creature powerful enough to create the world but, nevertheless, a creature. In theology this relationship of the Son to the Father is called subordinationism. The Son is subordinate, that is, secondary to, dependent upon, and caused by the Father. The Apologists were subordinationists.� - p. 110, A Short History of the Early Church, Harry R. Boer.
“Before the Council of Nicaea (A D 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father.� - p. 114 in the revised 1990 ed. of The History of Christianity, Lion Publishing.
Professor of ecclesiastical history, L. L. Paine, A Critical History Of The Evolution Of Trinitarianism, p. 4, tells us:
“The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there ... is utterly without foundation.�
Thank you!
“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity ... derives no support from the language of Justin [Justin Martyr - died ca. 165 A. D.]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and ... Holy Spirit, but not as coequal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.� - The Church of the First Three Centuries.
“Justin [Justin Martyr, ‘the best known’ of the Apologists] and the other Apologists therefore taught that the Son is a creature. He is a high creature, a creature powerful enough to create the world but, nevertheless, a creature. In theology this relationship of the Son to the Father is called subordinationism. The Son is subordinate, that is, secondary to, dependent upon, and caused by the Father. The Apologists were subordinationists.� - p. 110, A Short History of the Early Church, Harry R. Boer.
“Before the Council of Nicaea (A D 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father.� - p. 114 in the revised 1990 ed. of The History of Christianity, Lion Publishing.
Professor of ecclesiastical history, L. L. Paine, A Critical History Of The Evolution Of Trinitarianism, p. 4, tells us:
“The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there ... is utterly without foundation.�
-
Wootah
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Post #6
How can not God pay for sins against God?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Elijah John
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Post #7
He simply forgives the contrite.Wootah wrote: How can not God pay for sins against God?
Mercy is part of His nature. Forgiveness that requires "payment" is not forgiveness.When one forgives a debt, one does not expect nor require payment any longer.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Wootah
- Savant
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
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Post #8
[Replying to Elijah John]
And that's unjust. It's basic logic like 1+ 1= 2.
Demonstrate some rational example of forgiveness/mercy that is also just. Something ? Anything ?
And that's unjust. It's basic logic like 1+ 1= 2.
Demonstrate some rational example of forgiveness/mercy that is also just. Something ? Anything ?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."-
Elijah John
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- Posts: 12236
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Post #9
Is it unjust to forgive those who repent? Justice is also part of YHVH's character, as is mercy. One need not counteract the other. It is His Wisdom which tempers justice and mercy as well as mercy with justice.Wootah wrote: [Replying to Elijah John]
And that's unjust. It's basic logic like 1+ 1= 2.
Demonstrate some rational example of forgiveness/mercy that is also just. Something ? Anything ?
God is wise enough to know whom to forgive, when and how. Do you deny His Wisdom?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Wootah
- Savant
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- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
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Post #10
[Replying to Elijah John]
You're asking for the wisdom to believe 1 +1 = 3.
Would a loving God demand that?
You're asking for the wisdom to believe 1 +1 = 3.
Would a loving God demand that?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image."
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
."
