Gender Neutrality

[4gold]

In today's political and social climate, policies are changing toward accomodating gender as a personal choice while homosexuality is natural.

In New York City, the city's Board of Health would allow residents to choose what gender they want on their birth certificate, whether the resident has had a sex change operation or not.

In Oakland, California, elementary schools are creating "gender fluid" atmospheres to allow students to choose for themselves which gender role they prefer.

In Oshkosh, Wisconsin, the ACLU is filing a lawsuit that inmates diagnosed with gender identity disorder are Constitutionally allowed taxpayer-assisted sex change operations.

Questions for debate:

Should society create a gender neutral atmosphere?

Should psychology's standards be our foundation for our cultural laws?

Am I only pointing out absurd examples, or is gender-neutrality really a growing trend in the US, North America, and/or Western culture?

For non-theistic responders: Do you believe that gender is a personal choice, and that homosexuality is natural?

For theistic responders: Does God create transgendered humans?

[Dion]

In New York City, the city's Board of Health would allow residents to choose what gender they want on their birth certificate, whether the resident has had a sex change operation or not.

Does this mean that if I lived in New York I could have my birth certificate altered to say I was female? Would I then be allowed to frequent ladies locker rooms at sports facilities on the grounds that I was now officially a woman?

If the answer is no, I suspect that tells us all we need to know about people being allowed to choose their gender.

p.s. The pedant in me (sorry) demands that I point out that 'gender' is a grammatical term that applies only to words. People or other animals belong to one sex or another. So we use gender words in relation to a given sex, e.g. she/her for female or he/him for male, it for neutral, etc.

Words have gender, people have sex (if they're lucky!).

[Confused]

In New York City, the city's Board of Health would allow residents to choose what gender they want on their birth certificate, whether the resident has had a sex change operation or not.

Does this mean that if I lived in New York I could have my birth certificate altered to say I was female? Would I then be allowed to frequent ladies locker rooms at sports facilities on the grounds that I was now officially a woman?

If the answer is no, I suspect that tells us all we need to know about people being allowed to choose their gender.

p.s. The pedant in me (sorry) demands that I point out that 'gender' is a grammatical term that applies only to words. People or other animals belong to one sex or another. So we use gender words in relation to a given sex, e.g. she/her for female or he/him for male, it for neutral, etc.

Words have gender, people have sex (if they're lucky!).

Gender is also a scientific term.

[Dion]

Gender is also a scientific term.

You would need to expand upon that comment before I would concede the point. (I did warn you that I could be pedantic!) But I am perfectly willing to learn something new.

[Confused]

Gender is also a scientific term.

You would need to expand upon that comment before I would concede the point. (I did warn you that I could be pedantic!) But I am perfectly willing to learn something new.

Gender is defined by dictionary definition as:

NOUN:

Grammar
A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
One category of such a set.
The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
The distinguishing form or forms used.
Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

The condition of being female or male; sex.
Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

In science, medicine particularly, we define gender based on chormsomes. XX or XY. In psychology they use the word a bit more loosely. What else would you like?

[Dion]

In science, medicine particularly, we define gender based on chormsomes. XX or XY. In psychology they use the word a bit more loosely. What else would you like?

I, too, am a scientist; but when I mean sex I say sex and when I mean gender I say gender. Although I fully recognize that particular disciplines have their own jargon.

I also recognize that language is fluid and words can change in meaning according to current usage. And since I have no desire to enter into one of these long and time consuming debates on the precise meaning of a particular word, perhaps we both might reflect upon the following:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
Through the Looking Glass.

[Confused]

In science, medicine particularly, we define gender based on chormsomes. XX or XY. In psychology they use the word a bit more loosely. What else would you like?

I, too, am a scientist; but when I mean sex I say sex and when I mean gender I say gender. Although I fully recognize that particular disciplines have their own jargon.

I also recognize that language is fluid and words can change in meaning according to current usage. And since I have no desire to enter into one of these long and time consuming debates on the precise meaning of a particular word, perhaps we both might reflect upon the following:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
Through the Looking Glass.

I agree, a person can use a word in different contexts to make it mean what they wish. But when we define a persons gender for the purposes of science, we use the same language so as to avoid this confusion. If one isn't comfortable with their scientific gender, then they have every right to have surgery and redefine their appearance, but their dna will still be xx or xy.

[Dion]

If one isn't comfortable with their scientific gender, then they have every right to have surgery and redefine their appearance, but their dna will still be xx or xy.

You make my point for me in the above sentence. It is not their scientific sex that will be changed it is only the perception of gender. That is, the way they will be viewed and the words that will be applied to them, he rather than she or she rather than he. Their scientific sex, not gender, will still be determined by their xx or xy chromosomes.

I suspect that the use of the word gender as a synonym for sex is a 'politically correct' convention in your particular field of work.

[Confused]

If one isn't comfortable with their scientific gender, then they have every right to have surgery and redefine their appearance, but their dna will still be xx or xy.

You make my point for me in the above sentence. It is not their scientific sex that will be changed it is only the perception of gender. That is, the way they will be viewed and the words that will be applied to them, he rather than she or she rather than he. Their scientific sex, not gender, will still be determined by their xx or xy chromosomes.

I suspect that the use of the word gender as a synonym for sex is a 'politically correct' convention in your particular field of work.

You would be correct. My apologies for misinterpreting your posts.

[Dion]

My apologies for misinterpreting your posts.

I'm afraid that I cannot accept your apologies - on the grounds that you have nothing to apologise for. Though I am very glad that we seem to have come to an understanding.