JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 347 by JehovahsWitness]

I believe that each of the following claim divine inspiration:

• Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures
• Gospel of Marcion
• The Book of Mormon
• The Pearl of Great Price
• The Doctrine and Covenants
• The Guru Granth Sahib
• Papal Bulls

[McCulloch]

For every detail that the writers of the Bible got right against what might have been known at the time...

What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that there are indeed details that the bible writers "got something right" despite the constraints of the knowledge of their day? Can you provide evidence of this? It seems to me you are contrasting what they got right with what they got wrong, please prove your the premise by providing evidence of what they got right.

JW

I don't understand your objection. You provided a list of what the Biblical writers got right.

• the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support
• earth's water cycle,
• laws of quarantine

I can, if you wish, provide a list of what they got wrong

• the order of creation
• describing the Sky as a Solid Dome Containing Windows
• disease caused by demons not microorganisms

[JehovahsWitness]

For every detail that the writers of the Bible got right against what might have been known at the time...

What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that there are indeed details that the bible writers "got something right" despite the constraints of the knowledge of their day? Can you provide evidence of this? It seems to me you are contrasting what they got right with what they got wrong, please prove your the premise by providing evidence of what they got right.

JW

I don't understand your objection. You provided a list of what the Biblical writers got right.

• the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support
• earth's water cycle,
• laws of quarantine

So you agree that the above are indeed things that the bible writers got right, despite the knowledge not being commonly available to their age?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 347 by JehovahsWitness]

I believe that each of the following claim divine inspiration:

• Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures
• Gospel of Marcion
• The Book of Mormon
• The Pearl of Great Price
• The Doctrine and Covenants
• The Guru Granth Sahib
• Papal Bulls

"Divine inspiration" is somewhat ambiguous, I said that the writers specifically said the words you are reading were either dictated by God and/or specific statements, thoughts or ideas that God told the writer to relay or write down. "God told me to say ..." "This is the pronouncement of the Almighty..." "God instructed me to write this message down..." that kind of thing.

If you are suggesting that such explicit statements are in any of the above documents feel free to prove it by quoting the relevant passages with references.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 347 by JehovahsWitness]

I believe that each of the following claim divine inspiration:

• Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures
• Gospel of Marcion
• The Book of Mormon
• The Pearl of Great Price
• The Doctrine and Covenants
• The Guru Granth Sahib
• Papal Bulls

"Divine inspiration" is somewhat ambiguous, I said that the writers specifically said the words you are reading were either dictated by God and/or specific statements, thoughts or ideas that God told the writer to relay or write down. "God told me to say ..." "This is the pronouncement of the Almighty..." "God instructed me to write this message down..." that kind of thing.

If you are suggesting that such explicit statements are in any of the above documents feel free to prove it by quoting the relevant passages with references.

I'll get on that right away. While I'm doing that, you might do the same for the Bible. I would be particularly interested in such statements regarding Ruth, Job and the Gospel of Mark.

But don't spend too much time. Even if true your argument is a rather weak one. Making the claim of divine authorship does not make it true.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 354 by McCulloch]

Please see - as you will notice I did not say "every individual book" I said that as a collection they contain such specific statements.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 342#869342

I take it the books you refer to are also a collection of writings, so one such statement for the entire collections of books on your list would be a minimum to prove your point. I am genuinely interested in your research.


JW

[onewithhim]

Jesus called the Hebrew Scriptures God's Word, and "truth." (John 17:17)

[McCulloch]

Jesus called the Hebrew Scriptures God's Word, and "truth." (John 17:17)

Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

Jesus does no such thing. He claims that God's word is truth. What Jesus does not do is to specify what he means by God's word.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 357 by McCulloch]

Well what else would be "God's Word"? Isn't that what we call the Bible? And he was totally familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures, quoting them continually. The Hebrew Scriptures, Genesis through Malachi, were what constituted HIS Bible.

[McCulloch]

The Second Book of Nephi, 33:10
And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

At this point, I'd like to recap. JW gave three reasons to accept that the Bible is actually from God. The first of these reasons given was that the Bible itself claims to be from God. I stated two objections to that argument. Firstly, it is not true. There is no place in the Bible where the claim is made that the Bible is a record of the words of God. Secondly, it does not matter. Making the claim is not the same as the claim being true.

JW then made the claim that the Bible claims divine authorship more clearly, forcefully and more often than any other writings. Upon further reflection, I now know that this claim is absolutely irrelevant. But, at the time, I responded with a short list of other religions' holy scriptures with the claim that their writers too claim divine authorship. JW seized on the opportunity to challenge my claim. This challenge would direct my time and effort to find evidence to support a claim that I had made, totally irrelevant to his original claim.

JW has skilfully directed our attention away from the fact that he has not in any way addressed the two shortcomings of the first of three reasons to accept that the Bible is from God. I therefore with shame and apologies to the debate readers, withdraw as irrelevant claims I have made regarding other sacred scriptures.

We should focus on the original claim.

The post you point to only really demonstrates the antiquity of the Canon, not it's validity as the "Word of God".

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#1 It claims to be the word of God.

Few authors actually claim the content of their books are the word of God. Even many of the so-called holy books rarely make this explicit claim. The writings of Hindu Vedic, for example, is essentially a collention of ritualistic commentaries about hymns, philosophical treatises called the Upanishads, and the epic stories known as Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Buddha did not claim to be a god, and he actually said very little about God. The texts of Confucianism are an amalgam of records of events, moral rules, magical formulas, and songs. With the exception of the Quran, the holy book of Islam, surprisingly few religious make the unique claim of contain the words, thoughts, prophecies and instructions of Almighty God Himself.

I'll expand on my two objections.

Firstly, it is not true. Some of the authors of the Bible claim to be speaking for God. Others do not. There are no claims in the Bible about the Bible itself.

Secondly, and most importantly, it does not follow. Look in a grocery store. The items with the loudest nutritional claims are not the most nutritional food. The most nutritious items have no loud claims. Broccoli, carrots, kale … no nutritional labels. Making a claim is not the same as the claim being true. If the all knowing all powerful creator of the universe really wanted to communicate to humanity, he would not have to announce it. He could make it self evident.