JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 150 by JehovahsWitness] And why exactly couldn't the saints also not have been raised to physical life and then died again. Is it more difficult for God to revive a completely decomposed body than a stinking corpse. Or perhaps Matthew lied? Jesus lied, why can't Matthew? What is this about King David being in heaven? I thought you said that nobody was being raised to eternal life untill the last day.

Acts 2:29
“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 151 by postroad]


Well if you mean Lazarus (he was after all a believer and a follower of Christ) then he was raised to physical life, as were the other reports of résurrections in the bible. There are only 9 résurrections reported in the bible and only one (Jeseus) was raised as a spirit (read: immortality). Such a spiritual ressurection was only possible after the death and ressurection of Jesus, not before, for it was his ransom sacrifice, the value of which was offered to God 40 days after his resurrection, that other ones could follow.

Follow Christ not lead.

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 148 by onewithhim]
Have it your way then. If no one will be raised until the last day then indeed Lazerus himself was never raised to life by Jesus and the authors all lied about it. Let us all quickly tear their accounts from our Bibles. The account appears in both Luke and John.
Luke the liar even has Jesus bringing another person to life.

Luke 8:51-56New International Version (NIV)

51 When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. 52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,� Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.�o

53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!� 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then I yJesus told them to give her something to eat. 56 Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

yes she was dead. Her spirit had vacated the premises. It had gone to wherever a persons spirit goes when they die and that person presumably had to die again. Did anyone notice that Jesus lied. Why yes he did bear false witness. That girl was not in a deep sleep. She was dead by any definition. The spirit had left her body and not just momentarily. The mourning was already in progress.

We are talking about Jesus performing a temporary resurrection for Lazarus and the young girl. "In the last day" when the general Resurrection is performed, it will be a resurrection to unending life.

Have you missed the idea that the "spirit" that returns to God is merely the LIFE-FORCE that keeps a person alive? It is not some ethereal side of us that consciously goes off into the spirit realm when we die. It is the force or power that keeps something alive, just like the electricity in the wires leading to our light bulbs. So, a "spirit person" does not go anywhere. Spirit persons are never humans that have died; spirit persons are only the angels, whom God created that way.

Jesus didn't lie. He was saying that he had the power from Jehovah to bring the girl AND Lazarus back to life, as easily as he could awaken a sleeping person, and it was true and remains true to this day that when people die it is AS IF they were asleep, because they aren't conscious of anything.

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." (Eccles.9:5, KJV)


.

[onewithhim]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

You put these things out for "debate," and ask us to address these issues, yet you have not responded to my posts #61 & #64 on page 7. I was careful to address each thing you mentioned.

Are you going to reply?


.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 153 by onewithhim]
Oh boy!! This is getting very complicated. Seems that you are leaning on a lot of extra biblical material in order to prop up your beliefs. And yes Jesus did lie.he had motive. He wanted to keep it secret. Notice how none of those mourners were allowed in and those inside were instructed to keep it to themselves. He was doing exactly the opposite of what you claim. He was not showing that he had power to revive the spirit. He was trying to conceal it. Anyway, is it beyond the realm of possibility that those bones in the tombs could have been reanimated through having their spirit restored. Also in what form did Jesus exist before his time on earth. At his resurrection and return to heaven did he bring back more than what he came with?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 153 by onewithhim]
Oh boy!! This is getting very complicated. Seems that you are leaning on a lot of extra biblical material in order to prop up your beliefs. And yes Jesus did lie.he had motive. He wanted to keep it secret. Notice how none of those mourners were allowed in and those inside were instructed to keep it to themselves. He was doing exactly the opposite of what you claim. He was not showing that he had power to revive the spirit. He was trying to conceal it. Anyway, is it beyond the realm of possibility that those bones in the tombs could have been reanimated through having their spirit restored. Also in what form did Jesus exist before his time on earth. At his resurrection and return to heaven did he bring back more than what he came with?

What extra biblical material am I leaning on to prop up my beliefs?

I have commented thoroughly on the bodies being thrown out of their graves.

You say Jesus wanted to keep Lazarus' resurrection secret? Where do you get that idea from? His whole purpose for resurrecting Lazarus was to show people what he would do on a grand scale during the "last day." He also prayed aloud to his Father "on account of the crowd standing around," so that "they might believe that you sent me forth." (John 11:42)

I don't see there anything that indicates that people were not allowed in or that they were to keep it to themselves. Could you show me where you see this?

You ask what form Jesus existed in before his time on Earth. Answer: He was a spirit person, just like his Father, Jehovah. (John 4:24) No, he did not take back to heaven more than he came with.


.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

1) What do any of these prohibitions have to do with Christianity? Answer:

-Celebrating birthdays: The early Christians and the Jews of early times did not celebrate birthdays. "The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general." (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, New York, 1838, Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose, pg 190.) "The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days." (The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, London, 1874, edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol.I, pg 225.) "The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating---complete with lighted candles---in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year....Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom." (Schwabische Zeitung, April 3/4, 1981, pg 4) "The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea....This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint....The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks....Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]....Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes." (The Lore of Birthdays, New York, 1952, Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp.8,18-20.)

Let's just focus on birthdays and holidays for now. Observance of birthdays by most Christians is NOT part of any form of Pagan worship. It can be viewed as a celebration of God's creation of a loved one. Why put a Pagan spin on it just because some of the ancients once did? Folks that celebrate modern birthdays do no harm by the celebrating. So why forbid it? That's just legalistic, it seems to me.

Just because the Pagans did something, doesn't make it evil in and of itself. Or why stop there, why not prohibit eating and sleeping too? After all, Pagans eat and sleep?

Same with Christmas and Easter. If "Pagan trappings" bother you, then why not just celebrate Christmas without the Christmas tree, as observance of the birth of Christ?

And why not just celebrate Easter without the Eater Bunny or Easter eggs? Celebrate as "Resurrection Day"?

Both holidays can be observed without or without the Pagan trappings. If the Pagan trappings (which most regard as "decorative" trappings without Pagan religious significance) bother you so much, why not just focus on the Christian core of both holidays?

Wouldn't true Christians feel the need to extricate themselves from such observances? If Christ is the truth (John 14:6), would we mix in UNtruths with our worship of God? (2Corinthians 6:14-17) The bottom line is this: Wholesome gatherings of family and friends AT OTHER TIMES to eat and drink and rejoice are not objectionable.

Again, why not just celebrate the birth of Christ and his Resurrection without the Pagan trappings? It can be done.

Why prohibit those observances altogether when they are not only harmless, but actually arguably beneficial?

To prohibit their observance is legalistic, imo.

Why religiously legislate such divisive doctrines, instead of focusing on the far more important things that your sect teaches, such as the unity of God and the importance of His Name?

Your group has something very important to say , and to offer. But you hinder your unitarian (as opposed to trinitarian) message by putting up needless barriers.

Who knows how many would be JWs never join because of your group's legalisms?

What about the "Wise Men" following the star? Those guys were magi---ASTROLOGERS from the East, and the practice of astrology is strongly disapproved in the Bible. Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned?

What about the Wise Men? They are honored in the NT because they honor Jesus. Perhaps that is the Bible's way of saying that astrology per se isn't intrincally evil, and that God's love transcends religious cultures, well beyond the Hebraic even into the Persian?

There was certainly cross-cultural pollination going on there. Some scholars believe that Jews got their ideas of the afterlife from Zoroastrianism, during their Persian captivitiy.

Cyrus himself is considered a messiah (not THE Messiah), and a righteous Gentile!

[onewithhim]

E.J., what about the rest of my post?

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[postroad]

[Replying to post 156 by onewithhim]
I am getting a little bit frustrated here. Are you having some difficulty keeping track?

Luke 8:51-56New International Version (NIV)

51 When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. 52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,� Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.�

53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!� 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56 Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

. You can imagine any complications in doctrine in the statement that Jesus left with nothing more than he came with?

[Elijah John]

E.J., what about the rest of my post?

.

What about my answer? Regarding the other matters I don't have any strong opinion on those, nor any expertise. (blood transfusions etc)

It seems to me to be yet another unnecessary prohibition, much like Christian Science prohibiting medicine.

In general, (as I see it) some Bible writers and their adherants place far too much importance on blood, especially as a medium of redemption.

Water seems a far better fluid-symbol then blood for that purpose. (Living Water, quenching Spiritual thirst, baptisms, washing clean, tears of repentance, etc, etc)