JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[JehovahsWitness]

If the Saints were not raised to life then Christ also must have simply been spewed forth from his tomb ....

Not necessarily. The word "raise" without "from the dead" being added or "to life" can mean several things; its not an matter of all or nothing.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 141 by JehovahsWitness] Its a resolved matter. These Saints were raised to life, waited until Christ was resurrected and then went into Jerusalem where the are recognized by many and then presumabley went back to their tombs and died again. They will be resurected a second time at the end of the ages in the same way as Lazerus.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 141 by JehovahsWitness] Its a resolved matter. These Saints were raised to life, waited until Christ was resurrected and then went into Jerusalem where the are recognized by many and then presumabley went back to their tombs and died again. They will be resurected a second time at the end of the ages in the same way as Lazerus.

RESPONSE: So you are saying they died more than once?

Doesn't scripture say that a man can die but once? And what about Jesus and Elijah? Did they die twice?

How about Matthew's story about the resurrection following Christ's death just being fiction?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 143 by polonius.advice] To me it is. And if people die and are resurected repeatedly I see an unresolvable contradiction. This contradiction somehow resolves itself by having different classes of resurected beings. Doesn't work for me, but having had such a breakthrough on the text I am content to let the matter rest.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 138 by hoghead1]




[center]
None of the above ≠ deeply interested in theology[/center]

Today, there is much talk about "nones," individuals who are deeply interested in theology, but have little or no interest in an affiliation with any organized religious denomination.

Actually, the "nones"are people who aren't affiliated with a religion. It doesn't at all MEAN that they are interested in any kind of theology. A person who will select "None" when asked what religious affiliation they have, might be an ATHEIST.

And a lot of people who CALL themselves "religious" don't give a HOOT about any theology. A lot of them just kinda sorta "believe"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nones

I think the problem is that to many churches have become rather boring social clubs with little or no real intellectual stimulation.

A lot of churches have introduced musical numbers... and light shows, too.
Boring to you?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 143 by polonius.advice] To me it is. And if people die and are resurected repeatedly I see an unresolvable contradiction. This contradiction somehow resolves itself by having different classes of resurected beings. Doesn't work for me, but having had such a breakthrough on the text I am content to let the matter rest.

I think the breakthrough on the text is what the WTS says about it. The holy ones couldn't have been actually brought back to life because Jesus says he is going to do it "on the last day." (John 6:44) Your version of it contradicts Jesus himself.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 143 by polonius.advice] To me it is. And if people die and are resurected repeatedly I see an unresolvable contradiction. This contradiction somehow resolves itself by having different classes of resurected beings. Doesn't work for me, but having had such a breakthrough on the text I am content to let the matter rest.

I think the breakthrough on the text is what the WTS says about it. The holy ones couldn't have been actually brought back to life because Jesus says he is going to do it "on the last day." (John 6:44) Your version of it contradicts Jesus himself.

RESPONSE: Not at all. Actually, two different things are bing spoken of. Matthew is speaking about a physical resurrection of many people which occurred when Jesus dies. John is speaking about salvation upon the end of time.

Actually, these statements are speaking of two different things.

Matthew 27:52 52The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.53After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Meaning: Raised back to life on the day Jesus died.

John 6:44 44No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.

Meaning: Salvation to heaven on the last day.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 143 by polonius.advice] To me it is. And if people die and are resurected repeatedly I see an unresolvable contradiction. This contradiction somehow resolves itself by having different classes of resurected beings. Doesn't work for me, but having had such a breakthrough on the text I am content to let the matter rest.

I think the breakthrough on the text is what the WTS says about it. The holy ones couldn't have been actually brought back to life because Jesus says he is going to do it "on the last day." (John 6:44) Your version of it contradicts Jesus himself.

RESPONSE: Not at all. Actually, two different things are bing spoken of. Matthew is speaking about a physical resurrection of many people which occurred when Jesus dies. John is speaking about salvation upon the end of time.

Actually, these statements are speaking of two different things.

Matthew 27:52 52The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.53After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Meaning: Raised back to life on the day Jesus died.

John 6:44 44No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.

Meaning: Salvation to heaven on the last day.

I may be slow, but I think I'm pretty clear on this. You're right that the two scriptures are speaking of different things. In Matthew it is not a resurrection but corpses being thrown up out of their graves. John speaks of the actual resurrection of dead people back to life.

If people were actually raised up back to life, surely that event would have been mentioned by other Bible writers. They are silent on the event.

And all people will not be raised to heaven. Most of the people who were ever born will be raised back to life in a physical body, here on Earth.

Isaiah 45:18; Psalm 37:9-11,29


.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 148 by onewithhim]
Have it your way then. If no one will be raised until the last day then indeed Lazerus himself was never raised to life by Jesus and the authors all lied about it. Let us all quickly tear their accounts from our Bibles. The account appears in both Luke and John.
Luke the liar even has Jesus bringing another person to life.

Luke 8:51-56New International Version (NIV)

51 When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. 52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,� Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.�o

53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!� 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then I yJesus told them to give her something to eat. 56 Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

yes she was dead. Her spirit had vacated the premises. It had gone to wherever a persons spirit goes when they die and that person presumably had to die again. Did anyone notice that Jesus lied. Why yes he did bear false witness. That girl was not in a deep sleep. She was dead by any definition. The spirit had left her body and not just momentarily. The mourning was already in progress.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 148 by onewithhim]
Have it your way then. If no one will be raised until the last day then indeed Lazerus himself was never raised to life by Jesus and the authors all lied about it.

Lazarus and the other 8 cases of resurrections mentioned in scripture, all died again.

Jesus was the first to be raised to eternal life; he was the first to be raised to immortality as a spirit,. Nobody, not even king David, went to heaven beforeally Jesus opended the way there.