Helping Gauleiter88

[ttruscott]

Hello. I am new to the forum and don't know how to use it yet. I am an American male, 85 years old, retired and now living in northern California. I was raised as a Christian, but not very seriously and soon became an agnostic. Now that I am older, I am more open to the idea of some kind of life after death. I have looked at several religions, but found nothing satisfactory. I have many questions. I don't want preaching, just personal answers.

This post was stuck into another topic so I rescued the thought to give it its own weight. Good luck, Gauleiter88... ask your questions here.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 40 by myth-one.com]




[center]How does God measure a day?
Part Two[/center]

If the planet you're referring to as "God's planet" is the earth -- then the average length of the period of rotation on its axis for that planet (as defined by earthlings themselves) is one "day."

Yeah, I called the planet that God is on.. "God's planet" not because I imagine the Biblical god lives on a planet or anything, but because the word "day" can only REFER to a planet's rotation ... since that's what the word means.

It's all a bit confusing.
If God were on a planet that rotated once every 1000 years, then fine.. his "day" would be that long.

So, maybe my question could have been:

What does the word "day" mean to a god?
Or, in other words:
If God is NOT on a planet.. what does it mean for a god to have a "day" of any lenght?

[myth-one.com]

It's all a bit confusing.

That's because you're reading the two verses as if God says that a day is the same as a thousand years.

That is not what they say.

Here they are again:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past... (Psalm 90:4)

But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (II Peter 3:8)

Where is it stated that the two periods are equal?

Here is an experiment you can run:

A minute is a fairly short period of time.

Hold your breath while watching the seconds hand of a watch.

Does that minute seem much longer than it should be?

If so, then that minute seemed longer than other minutes only because you held your breath -- that's was the only change.

But all minutes are actually equal.

Holding one's breath does not modify time -- it only seems to do so.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 42 by myth-one.com]




[center]
How does God measure a day?
Part Three: Subjective time vs. objective time.[/center]

It's all a bit confusing.

That's because you're reading the two verses as if God says that a day is the same as a thousand years.

The only thing that I was reading was your comment in Post 38: "A day to God is like a thousand years. " I think that perhaps you are saying that the EMPHASIS was on "like". Time seems to go real slow for God, for some reason.

Sheesh, must be very boring, don't you think?
Time SEEMS to goes 8 billion times slower for God than for us humans.

Amazing.

That is not what they say.

Here they are again:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past... (Psalm 90:4)

But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (II Peter 3:8)

Where is it stated that the two periods are equal?

Yeah, well.. in that quote, depending how it's interpreted. The wording is very vague, have to admit. But I thought you had interpreted it as objective time. I think that many "young earthers" do.

A day is with the Lord a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.. "Is with the Lord" is a little vague.. It could be interpreted to mean subjective time or objective time.

It seems that you decided that meant: "A day to God is like a thousand years." so, that's why I asked you what that meant. We call a full rotation of a planet a "day".
But to God, a day seems to last a long long long long time. Our human perception of time just rockets along compared to God's. Weird.

Here is an experiment you can run:

A minute is a fairly short period of time.

Yep.

Hold your breath while watching the seconds hand of a watch.

ok

Does that minute seem much longer than it should be?

Yep.

If so, then that minute seemed longer than other minutes only because you held your breath -- that's was the only change.

Oh, you are saying that a day just SEEMS like a thousand years to God.. I get it.
You are interpreting this to mean SUBJECTIVE time, got it. I think.

But all minutes are actually equal.

Holding one's breath does not modify time -- it only seems to do so.

Ok, so you are saying that the Bible verses are talking about how time is felt subjectively by God. I'll ask to make sure.



____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Some creationists believe that that creation took 6000 years and not just 6 days like it actually says in the Bible. Are they wrong?
  
  2. Does time SEEM to go 8 billion times slower for God than for us humans?
  
  3. Why would that be, do you think?
  
  4. Just to make sure I understand you correctly, are you saying that to God, time only APPEARS to go 8 billion times slower than for the rest of us?
  
  5. Are you talking about how time feels to God SUBJECTIVELY?
  
  6. How OBJECTIVELY long do you figure it took for God to create the universe?
  
  

____________

[myth-one.com]

The only thing that I was reading was your comment in Post 38: "A day to God is like a thousand years. " I think that perhaps you are saying that the EMPHASIS was on "like". Time seems to go real slow for God, for some reason.

The tracking of time is only of importance to those whose time is limited.

God exists eternally. So plus or minus a trillion trillion trillion years is meaningless.

But any second in time is the same second in time for God and any human living at that time.

=======================================================================

Some creationists believe that that creation took 6000 years and not just 6 days like it actually says in the Bible. Are they wrong?

The recreation of the decimated earth required six days.

How much time the original creation of "the heaven and the earth" in Genesis 1:1 is little discussed in the Bible!

It was simply created "In the beginning."

[onewithhim]

I have talked to several Christians who believe in the physical resurrection of the body and claim that we will have young healthy bodies forever in heaven.

Believers will be resurrected or born again with everlasting spiritual bodies -- not physical bodies.

Physical bodies do not possess everlasting life -- they perish:

Then after God created Adam, when was he supposed to die?

The wages of sin is death:

For the wages of sin is death . . .

And sin is the transgression of God's laws, or commandments:

For sin is the transgression of the law.

God gave one commandment to Adam, and explained the consequences of disobeying that one commandment in Genesis chapter 2:

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adan would die within the day that he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

A day to God is like a thousand years.

Adam died at the age of 930 years of age, which was within that God day in which he ate of the forbidden fruit:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past... (Psalm 90:4)

But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (II Peter 3:8)

I know all that. You didn't answer my question. Adam was created perfect, sinless, with the prospect of living on the earth forever. All he had to do was leave the one tree alone.

Now, if Adam had remained obedient to God, and he never received the consequence of disobedience---death---then when would he have gone to heaven?

[myth-one.com]

Adam was created perfect, sinless, with the prospect of living on the earth forever. All he had to do was leave the one tree alone.

Now, if Adam had remained obedient to God, and he never received the consequence of disobedience---death---then when would he have gone to heaven?

Adam could never go to heaven because he was born as a flesh and blood man, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

If he could live forever on the earth as you say, why be tempted by the prospect of heaven -- as Satan was?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 44 by myth-one.com]




[center]How does God measure a day?
Part Four: God's time vs. Our time[/center]

The tracking of time is only of importance to those whose time is limited.
God exists eternally. So plus or minus a trillion trillion trillion years is meaningless.

Ok, that makes sense to me.

To God, time is a meaningless concept.
To God, time isn't important.

At least, that's what you seem to believe.
You might be right.

But any second in time is the same second in time for God and any human living at that time.

Not sure I follow that one.

Time is meaningless to God, has no meaning, for all intents and purposes, time does not really exist to God.

And yet, you say that time is the same for God as for us humans.

This is the tricky bit.

Humans measure time by the rotation of the earth. For humans, time seems to "exist". One thing does seem to go after another for us. In a straight kinda line, too.

One way street for us, I'm afraid.

I have NO idea what it would be like to have no real human concept of time.

How much time the original creation of "the heaven and the earth" in Genesis 1:1 is little discussed in the Bible!

It was simply created "In the beginning."

The Bible does mention six days, my friend. ( seven, if you consider the rest day a "day of creation". I suppose that depends on the labor laws )

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Is it your opinion that when the Bible says that a day is like a thousand years that it meant time is meaningless to God?
  
  2. Is time completely meaningless to God?
  
  3. How can time be the same for God as for humans?
  
  4. Time, by Einstein's calculations, is relative to the observer. What is a "day" to God?
  
  5. Humans measure time by the rotation of the Earth. How does God measure a "day"?
  
  6. In the Bible, the creation took six days. Why do you say that it was jut in "the beginning"? Didn't the "beginning" take 6 days?
  
  7. You seem to contradict yourself: When you say that to God, time is meaningless, and that to humans, time has meaning, and then, you say that time is the SAME for both God and humans. What is completely different cannot be the same. Can you clear that up?
  
  8. If an eternal being who has ... unlimited TIME enters somewhere like the universe that might have LIMITED time, what happens to that space? Does the universe which may or may not have been eternal BECOME eternal to fit this eternal being? In other words, does the universe have to STRETCH in time to fit this God?
  
  9. I'm having a fair bit of trouble as to how some Christians measure the time of creation. Some say six literal days. Some say more like 6 to 10 thousand years. You seem to think that it was instantaneous and that it TOOK NO TIME... I might be wrong about your opinion. Could you clear that up? How long, in your opinion did creation take?
  
  10. Do you know what it would be like to have no real human concept of time?
  
  

____________

[myth-one.com]

6. In the Bible, the creation took six days. Why do you say that it was jut in "the beginning"? Didn't the "beginning" take 6 days?

Here is the description of the original creation in the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

That is the end of the initial original creation.

Since man was not involved or created during the original creation, there is no reason for any further explanation required.

It did not involve us!

And there is no mention of how long the original creation required.

Scientists use 15.7 billion years of age for the universe. I'm good with that as an estimate.

But we are not told what "heaven" consisted of in the beginning. It could consist of more than simply our known universe.

Thus 15.7 billion could be a very low estimate.

=========================================================================

The second (symbol: s) (abbreviated s or sec) is the base unit of time in the International System of Units (SI). The second is "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom".

It's probably the same period for God and Man.

It's more important to man as man's seconds are limited.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 48 by myth-one.com]


[center]
How does God measure a day?
Part Five: We don't know the time that it took to create... what?.... we don't know.[/center]

6. In the Bible, the creation took six days. Why do you say that it was jut in "the beginning"? Didn't the "beginning" take 6 days?

Here is the description of the original creation in the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

That is the end of the initial original creation.

Since man was not involved or created during the original creation, there is no reason for any further explanation required.

It did not involve us!

And there is no mention of how long the original creation required.

Scientists use 15.7 billion years of age for the universe. I'm good with that as an estimate.

_______________

NOTE IN PASSING:

Here is a little more precise estimate, since we are talking about how old scientists think the universe is:

"If the universe is flat and composed mostly of matter, then the age of the universe is

2/(3 Ho)

where Ho is the value of the Hubble constant.

If the universe has a very low density of matter, then its extrapolated age is larger:

1/Ho

If the universe contains a form of matter similar to the cosmological constant, then the inferred age can be even larger.

Many astronomers are working hard to measure the Hubble constant using a variety of different techniques. Until recently, the best estimates ranged from 65 km/sec/Megaparsec to 80 km/sec/Megaparsec, with the best value being about 72 km/sec/Megaparsec. In more familiar units, astronomers believe that 1/Ho is between 12 and 14 billion years.
"

https://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html

_______________

But we are not told what "heaven" consisted of in the beginning. It could consist of more than simply our known universe.

Thus 15.7 billion could be a very low estimate.

Yeah, astronomers are working hard to measure the Hubble constant.
Seventy two km/sec/Megaparsec is the one astronomers seem to currently use.

At least according to NASA.

The second (symbol: s) (abbreviated s or sec) is the base unit of time in the International System of Units (SI). The second is "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom".

It's probably the same period for God and Man.

It's more important to man as man's seconds are limited.

Oh for sure, life is very precious to us humans.

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. When you quote "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."... you seem to think that the word "Beginning" is like a length of time. How long is a "beginning"?
  
  2. When you use the phrase: "That is the end of the initial original creation." Are you saying that there are subsequent creations?
  
  3. How many creations do you think there are?
  
  4. When you say that : "And there is no mention of how long the original creation required. " are you saying that you don't have a clue as to how long it took God to create the universe? That.. initial creation, as you put it?
  
  5. Why do you say that: "Since man was not involved or created during the original creation, there is no reason for any further explanation required." I thought this topic was somewhat important enough for you to mention?
  
  6. When you say that: "But we are not told what "heaven" consisted of in the beginning. It could consist of more than simply our known universe.", are you saying that you don't know what the word "heaven" means in the Bible?
  
  7. Are you in effect saying that:
  
  a) You don't know what heaven is?
  b) You don't know how long it took God to create it?
  
  
  8. Is the discussion of how long it took God to create the universe meaningless ?
  
  9. When you say that God's time is not the same as human time, why do you say that "It's probably the same period for God and Man."?
  
  

____________

[onewithhim]

Adam was created perfect, sinless, with the prospect of living on the earth forever. All he had to do was leave the one tree alone.

Now, if Adam had remained obedient to God, and he never received the consequence of disobedience---death---then when would he have gone to heaven?

Adam could never go to heaven because he was born as a flesh and blood man, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

If he could live forever on the earth as you say, why be tempted by the prospect of heaven -- as Satan was?

OK, tell me if I'm way off on this.....I think maybe I asked that question because you had said everyone is supposed to go to heaven. (?) That is why I wondered what you thought about what people would have done if Adam and Eve had never sinned. Do you think they would have eventually gone to heaven (I guess you don't, because you just said flesh and blood doesn't go to heaven).....and if not, why do you think that all people NOW will end up in heaven?

I don't think Adam was ever tempted by the prospect of going to heaven. I don't think that was ever a thought. Satan was already in heaven, so I don't understand your reference to him being tempted by heaven.