The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Checkpoint
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Re: The 144,00

Post #21

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 20 by onewithhim]
Checkpoint, come back!
Pardon me....?!

What are you inferring, or trying to say, onewithhim?

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tam
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Re: The 144,00

Post #22

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
Yes, but why when they take the total number literally?
I thought we had discussed this before on another thread. It was said that 144,000 is taken literally because the number 12 is literal in Revelation (see Revelation 21:12 & 14).

144,000 is 12 x 12,000, is it not? It is a multiple of 12. Why not take it literally if "12" is clearly literal?


:-|

This is a good response as to why the number is taken literally. But that is not the question Checkpoint asked. I believe Checkpoint is asking,

"Why take the number literally, but NOT the tribes and Israel?"


Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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marco
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Re: The 144,00

Post #23

Post by marco »

theStudent wrote:

You probably missed these parts:

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number,



To be truthful, I would wonder that someone in a trance was able to count the 144,000. If John simply imbued the statistic, I don't know why he should display arithmetical modesty over the rest: 56,268,231,277,666 would be stunning.



theStudent wrote:
Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth[/b.


Obviously so. I naively thought that at the termination of humanity only 144,000 would be waiting on the platform but in fact these will be the philosopher-rulers that Plato spoke about. And ruling alongside Christ! The Spartans had a similar arrangement with the Helots.


Thus life with its daily bread, its intake of food and its wear and tear on the chemistry will go on for ever after.

I can see this is the sort of dream that an artless dreamer would dream. Do babies stay forever babies, or does the process of ageing apply? I hope it has all been properly thought out.

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onewithhim
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Re: The 144,00

Post #24

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 20 by onewithhim]
Checkpoint, come back!
Pardon me....?!

What are you inferring, or trying to say, onewithhim?
That your views are completely different in some posts, compared to others that you have written. Am I going nuts or is my "radar" way off? You seem to believe that Jesus is definitely not God, but then in recent posts you are demonstrating your affinity with people who believe that he is. (Posts #13,14; see also post #20.) Obviously, I have already expressed my wonderment as to whether or not you are TWO PEOPLE, so why would you just now say "what are you inferring"?

Does your wife come on here and comment for you?

I'm just curious. Your post #14 caused me to pause. You asked questions that you and the rest of us have discussed at length previously. I wondered why you were asking those questions, as if they were new thoughts to you.



:?: [/i]

Checkpoint
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Re: The 144,00

Post #25

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 20 by onewithhim]
Checkpoint, come back!
Pardon me....?!

What are you inferring, or trying to say, onewithhim?
That your views are completely different in some posts, compared to others that you have written. Am I going nuts or is my "radar" way off? You seem to believe that Jesus is definitely not God, but then in recent posts you are demonstrating your affinity with people who believe that he is. (Posts #13,14; see also post #20.) Obviously, I have already expressed my wonderment as to whether or not you are TWO PEOPLE, so why would you just now say "what are you inferring"?

Does your wife come on here and comment for you?

I'm just curious. Your post #14 caused me to pause. You asked questions that you and the rest of us have discussed at length previously. I wondered why you were asking those questions, as if they were new thoughts to you.

:?: [/i]
All Checkpoint posts are written by me, and from them anyone can know what my views are on whatever is being debated.

Because I cannot be put in a box and do think for myself, it will sometimes appear that I have an affinity with those opposed to the JWs, and at other times that I have an affinity with the JWs.

You are not going nuts but yes, your "radar" is way off!

On this thread issue I am opposed to the JWs. Not just on the number, but on what stems from this in JW doctrine.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #26

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
Yes, but why when they take the total number literally?
I thought we had discussed this before on another thread. It was said that 144,000 is taken literally because the number 12 is literal in Revelation (see Revelation 21:12 & 14).

144,000 is 12 x 12,000, is it not? It is a multiple of 12. Why not take it literally if "12" is clearly literal?


:-|

This is a good response as to why the number is taken literally. But that is not the question Checkpoint asked. I believe Checkpoint is asking,

"Why take the number literally, but NOT the tribes and Israel?"


Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Fair question. And the answer is: the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 are not literal in the same way, for example, that the locusts in chapter 9 are not literal. JehovahsWitness posted excellent comments explaining why we take some things literally but most things symbolically in Revelation. Checkpoint is a sharp individual; I am surprised that he didn't remember the things that JW had said, and he seemed like "spiritual Israel" was a new thought to him.

The Bible speaks of Israel in BOTH a physical way and a spiritual way. I had thought Checkpoint realized this. Spiritual Israel was referred to by Paul as an "Israel" that is made up of those for whom descent from Abraham is not a requirement.....that is, all who were walking in accord with the belief that Jesus Christ was impaled for the salvation of the world of mankind (Galatians 6:14-16). Being a descendant of Abraham was not necessary to be a part of spiritual Israel.

"You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman...for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Galatians 3:26,28,29)

The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons.

1) The list does not match that of fleshly/natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1.

2) Jerusalem's temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, way before John had his vision (of the Revelation) in 96 A.D.

3) Revelation was written after Pentecost of 33 A.D., and in light of this and events that had occurred in association with Jesus' words at Matthew 21:43 and Matthew 23:37,38 and Peter's words at I Peter 2:9,10, we can understand what John's vision indicated. In the 7th chapter, those standing on the heavenly Mt. Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel, which was "bought from among mankind" (Rev.7:4; 14:1,4). This Spiritual Israel of 144,000 was further described in chapter 5 of Revelation: "You [Jesus] bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." (vs.9,10)


O:)

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theStudent
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Re: The 144,00

Post #27

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 23 by marco]
marco wrote:Obviously so. I naively thought that at the termination of humanity only 144,000 would be waiting on the platform but in fact these will be the philosopher-rulers that Plato spoke about. And ruling alongside Christ! The Spartans had a similar arrangement with the Helots.


Thus life with its daily bread, its intake of food and its wear and tear on the chemistry will go on for ever after.

I can see this is the sort of dream that an artless dreamer would dream. Do babies stay forever babies, or does the process of ageing apply? I hope it has all been properly thought out.
"Properly thought out" sound like a plan.
Imo, people read the Bible, but I think they fail to understand God's purpose.
If we understand that God has a purpose, and we know what that purpose is, then as we read the Bible with the right attitude - and some help, of course, every piece of the puzzle begins to fall into place, and it all make sense.
That's why people who have done just that - studied the Bible with the help of Jehovah's people, and his spirit, have all in some form or fashion, at some point during their studies, exclaimed, "This is the truth! I have found the truth!" And from that day forward, they begin to share what little they understand with others, because the picture is so clear to them that it is like honey that makes the eyes shine.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #28

Post by marco »

theStudent wrote:
"Properly thought out" sound like a plan.
Imo, people read the Bible, but I think they fail to understand God's purpose.
If we understand that God has a purpose, and we know what that purpose is, then as we read the Bible with the right attitude - and some help, of course, every piece of the puzzle begins to fall into place, and it all make sense.
You debate well and have the right approach for putting down arrogant frivolity and I respect your patient explanations. I understand perfectly what you are saying: pieces of the puzzle fitting do indeed lead to happiness. I have worked on other puzzles, with the same sort of results.

theStudent wrote:

That's why people who have done just that - studied the Bible with the help of Jehovah's people, and his spirit, have all in some form or fashion, at some point during their studies, exclaimed, "This is the truth!
I do not doubt this. Many of us experience a "eureka" moment; the elements combine in us to give us joy at discovery and truth. I'm sure Muslims experience the same joy of discovery when they immerse themselves in the Koran. Philatelists gasp at some stamp they have found and ornithologists sigh at the sighting of a rare bird.

The idea that somebody dreamt of the number 144,000 and expressed his ideas in figurative language does not suggest truth to me, but superstition. African tribes actually SEE the leopard they conjure up in their ritual dances. Blessed are those who question, and do unto others what they would have done to themselves. I see no benefit in subjugating one's intellect to the ideas of very ordinary men, without question. But in the end if one extracts happiness and fulfilment from this, then who am I to say it is wrong?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #29

Post by Checkpoint »

Tammy wrote:
This is a good response as to why the number is taken literally. But that is not the question Checkpoint asked. I believe Checkpoint is asking,

"Why take the number literally, but NOT the tribes and Israel?"


Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
You answered, in part:
Fair question. And the answer is: the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 are not literal in the same way, for example, that the locusts in chapter 9 are not literal. JehovahsWitness posted excellent comments explaining why we take some things literally but most things symbolically in Revelation. Checkpoint is a sharp individual; I am surprised that he didn't remember the things that JW had said, and he seemed like "spiritual Israel" was a new thought to him.
"Spiritual Israel" is not a new thought to me. In fact it is a position I hold to strongly.

So I basically agree with the rest of your post.

What I do not agree with is how you apply it to JWs and others who have saving faith in Jesus Christ today.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:On this thread issue I am opposed to the JWs. Not just on the number, but on what stems from this in JW doctrine.
So I take it you believe number to be symbolic, but symbolic of what? an infinitely HUGE number of individuals or a relatively small number of individuals? Or symbolic of nothing at all except the need to a blank page with writing?

Do you believe there is a link between the "Israel of God" and this number? And what do you believe is the destiny of this small/huge/meaningless symbolic number of people?

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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