This generation shall not pass until

[Checkpoint]

This issue has been discussed over the centuries, and resulted in no agreed answer. Instead at least four possibilities have been proposed. These are:

#1. The generation alive at the time He spoke.
#2. The generation living when He returns.
#3. The nation of Israel, or the Jews as a race.
#4. A particular kind of people.

What is your view on this, and why do you hold it?

[Black Sheep]

[Replying to post 50 by postroad]

The language is still awkward because Jesus is still referencing those first century individuals.

The language isn't awkward. It's only awkward to those who can't accept the passage as it is. The language and context is concise. People who have trouble with it are those who try to fabricate another meaning than what was originally intended.

Show me WHERE the grammar suggest Jesus is referencing those first century individuals? The grammar suggest otherwise.

You disregard the questions the disciples asked. (THE SIGNS OF END OF THE WORLD!)
You disregard the context which is a response to those questions.
You disregard grammar which Jesus uses. Primarily the antecedent (entire chapter) to the word 'generation'.
You disregard the correct meaning of generation. (30-33 years)

Before Jesus even answers the question...
Jesus said, "Take heed that no man deceive you." He warns people to beware of deception about the signs that precede His return. Maybe you can give us a quick encapsulation as to HOW and WHEN all of the things Jesus mentioned in the passage HAS BEEN FULFILLED. LIKE MAYBE HOW THE TRIBULATION HAS ALREADY PASSED AND THE SUN AND MOON DARKENED,

How the abomination of Desolation already passed, and how Christ has already gathered his elect....just to mention a few things.

You may also want to familiarize yourself with a bit of grammar like just WHAT is a conjunction.

Conjunction...
NOUN...the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space.

GRAMMAR
a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause (e.g., and, but, if ).

The word LIKEWISE, which is the same as saying "so thus"...

Matthew 24:33  So thus, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

LIKEWISE...being a CONJUNCTION, proves Jesus never changed context or ceased from talking about the generation that would SEE ALL THESE THINGS!

Luke words it this way with the fig tree parable...

Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Jesus foretold that signs in the heavens would precede His return to earth. Maybe you can explain that contradiction IF this was meant for the generation Jesus was living in.

I noticed that you quoted several verses from Revelation like this one where Jesus says,
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.'
Jesus says he would return soon. Don't let it fool you into believing he would return in the first century.
John probably wrote that no earlier than 65 AD. Jesus spoke the words of Mathew 24 in about 32 AD. THAT GENERATION HAD ALREADY PASSED! You would be hard pressed explaining to the forum how all of the events of Mathew 24 occurred in that time.
Another thing...

Remember, the original question the disciples asked was "what will be the sign of your coming?" Jesus, in Mathew 24:36 said that NO MAN knows the day or hour of his return. So to say Mathew 24 took place in the generation of the first century not only means Jesus already returned, but also means Jesus DID know the generation he would return!

One version says it like this...

Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place:

So what generation did Jesus mean? How can that be the generation of the disciples when they never saw Jesus return as described in Matthew 24:30? Without a doubt, it's the generation that sees these signs. JUST LIKE JESUS SAID...

Matthew 24:33-35  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

For some reason after Jesus says, "when ye shall see all these things," he mentions heaven and earth passing away. Gee. I wonder why that is.

You have a mountain of evidence against you're take on "this generation."

And that's one problem with Christians, Agnostics, and people in general. They're going to adhere to what they already believe regardless of the mountain of evidence against them. Rather than accept the grammatical, historical, and contextual evidence before them, they go on believing what they want anyway.

Mathew 24 isn't that difficult to figure out. People just don't like changing their mind because they think they already have things figured out!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 45 by Black Sheep]

Quote:
"When Jesus said "this generation" he was talking about a generation that then existed, and would still exist, until all He spoke of had taken place."


The context of the chapter says otherwise. If what Jesus said between verse 3-33 was intended for the generation living at the time then Jesus would likely NOT USED the word which Thayers says, "Is the whole multitude of men living at the same time."

That definition alone debunks what you're trying to say. Emphasis is mine. This is the word genea...

fathered, birth, nativity
that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
the whole multitude of men living at the same time
an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

SO! According to the correct definition of the word 'generation', the only correct interpretation I see possible of a 30-33 year generation, that makes any senses, is the one that the grammar and context supports. And that would be the GENERATION that sees all of the things Jesus mentions Pass! It really isn't that difficult to figure out.

You are right in saying it isn't that hard to figure out. That is, providing we start from the right base.

In this case it is "the one that the grammar and context supports".

Context is more than just other surrounding verses. It is also "scripture interprets scripture". The question we should therefore ask is, "is 'this generation' used elsewhere in the Bible, and if so, what was the intended meaning?"

The term 'this generation' is one Jesus was in the habit of using, and His listeners would have known what and who He was meaning.

Here is one example; there are others:

"The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, 'Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation'.� Mark 8:11-12

Only when we bring all similar references and usage together, by Jesus and elsewhere in scripture, are we in a position to teach accurately as to just who Jesus was meaning when He said 'this generation' in Matthew 24:34.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 51 by Black Sheep]

I suppose this text make Jesus some sort of hypocrite then? Weeping over a city and its inhabitants because they refused to accept him. Knowing full well that they in no way would be enabled to do so in order that prophecy immediate and future could be fulfilled. are you indicating that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was not the event Jesus was referencing and at that at some future date Jews will reject him again after which enemies will again encircle the city and do a more thorough job of flattening the city?

Quote:
Luke 19:41-44New International Version (NIV)

41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.�

[Black Sheep]

[Replying to postroad]

I suppose this text make Jesus some sort of hypocrite then? Weeping over a city and its inhabitants because they refused to accept him. Knowing full well that they in no way would be enabled to do so in order that prophecy immediate and future could be fulfilled.

No, just because you can't get it right doesn't make Jesus a hypocrite, and your reply really doesn't make sense to me. It isn't that difficult to figure out WHAT generation Jesus is talking about. You just don't want to accept the context, which is about the end of the age, and the historical evidence, which DOESN'T exist, and the grammar that prove NONE of this has passed. It really is a no-brainer! You are more interested in upholding what you already believe than look for, and find, the truth. I'm not even sure what you're getting at posting Luke 19:41-44. And I have to wonder if you understand the passage at all.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 34 by OnceConvinced]

You keep quoting this:

"The greatest trick God ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".

It appears you have fallen for that claimed "trick".

I am konfoozed!

It's part of my signature. It's just a different spin on the whole "Satan has convinced the world he doesn't exist". God has done the same for many of us. (if indeed he actually exists that is!)

[OnceConvinced]

Hebrew and Greek do not follow the precise rules that English does. You can't go by the exact wording in English but have to check out what alternate ways it could be translated into English. Many words in the translations are added to conform to our language. Sometimes it either alters the meaning to us or it can have alternate translations.

BTW, I don't think Yeshua spoke Old English.

I don't know about you but I will trust that the professional translators got the meanings correct and that they got the grammar correct.

LOL, I never trust the translators. I have found too many errors.

How do we know it's not you that's made the errors. Who gets to judge rather than yourself?

I find it hard to believe that a professional translation would not correct their versions if they were shown to be incorrect.

I even went to bible college in my 40s to learn how to translate Hebrew because I KNEW some translations were wrong in places. I had to learn how they could be alternately translated. The reason being, the passage was about ancient paganism and I knew what it was talking about but the translator must not have been familiar with the context. Oh, the translators are MUCH better with language but a lot of the translation comes from the context and if you don't understand the context, errors occur.

Talk is cheap. You are are right and they are wrong you should have no problem of convincing them of that and getting them to correct their errors. Surely they would want to correct their errors?

Then you have differing translations saying different things. It is always good to see how they got different ideas from the same original.

There there are cases that they used differing codexs and the original they translated differs from other ancient copies.

Then you have the situation with the KJV which was translated from Hebrew->Greek->Latin->German->Old English. That is too many chances to have error creep in.

So what a waste of time it is reading and studying ANY English bible.

I just have no interest in debating alternative meanings of words. That ship sailed when I ceased being a Christian (and was a frustration when I WAS a Christian). If we can't have an accurate English version then, we're wasting our time with the bible. I certainly aren't interested in what amateurs translations are.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 34 by OnceConvinced]

The professional translators can surely be relied upon to give us the correct translations. At least i consider them more reliable than someone on the internet.

The so called professional translators are the ones misleading people because no matter what denomination they come from, their bias supports their teachings. That's one way Christianity has gone bad. People fabricate things to support the organization they belong to or what they already believe, and most of it is a colossal interpretational blunder. I don't trust the 'expert prophecy teachers' for anything. The ones I do trust are those who spent their lifetime working on the lexicons. I've had Vines, Wuest, Strong's, Gesenius, Thayers, and a few others, all in book form since 1973. I do my own research and I LIKE to change my mind when the totality of the evidence deems it.

Most 'prophecy experts' barely peer into the original language. Many of them DO KNOW that the Lexicons sometime clearly debunk their position. That's especially true with the pre-trib view. I don't accept very much of the 'prophecy experts' eschatology.

Please prove this is not anything more that just your opinion.

Prove that professional translators are:

Trying to mislead us
are biased
Are incorrect with their teachings

Also prove that YOU
are not trying to mislead us
have overcome your biases even though the professionals apparently are unable to
are correct with your teachings (other than your own opinion).

Until you can show that you are more qualified than the professionals, then how about we stick to the trusted English translations?

I'm AS qualified as they are in many respects. I'm just not committed to support any ones eschatology. I just show people the results of my unbiased studies and how I arrive at my conclusions.

I'm not interested in your translations or your interpretations. WE have professional translations available to us. If they are wrong, then it's up to Christians to fix those translations. In the meantime please stop trying to tell us that your translations are any more accurate than the professionals and that you are any less biased or or any less likely to try to mislead us.

I've been doing this for a while and I'm not going to give you my resume.

Then please stop insisting that you know better than the professionals.

I preached my first sermon in 1973, almost became a minister, but saw the writing on the indoctrination wall so I got out. I have my own beliefs and I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar. But these days, with the resources we have, it's actually quite easy to get an accurate interpretation of the bible. It just takes time. I have a host of resources in book form from the experts. The lexicons and the interlinear don't lie, and that's one resource I heavily rely upon.

This is in no way any guarantee you are going to have translated the Hebrew and Greek texts any more accurately than the professionals.

Then why was Paul so adamant that he was living in the end times? Why did he believe that Jesus's return was eminent?

Show me where, and I'll show you WHY.

Paul believed the end times prophecies were being fulfilled
Paul made this claim in Col 1:23: “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

This was seen as a direct fulfilment of Matt 24:14 which was to signal the start of the great tribulation. In 2 Cor 1:4 he even talks about the tribulation he and the saints are under. 1 Thess talks a lot about the suffering they are going through.

1 Cor right away Paul is addressing the Corinthians clearly talking as if Christ’s return was coming in their life time. His words for them NOW not future generations. In 2 cor 1:4 he even talks about being in tribulation.


1Th 4:17
Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall WE ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
“

1Th 5:1
¶
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thess really has a sense of urgency that Christ’s return is eminent and will be witnessed by them. Also talks about an anti Christ who is supposed to appear as if it was something just around the corner.

Writings not for future generations, but for those he was writing to. He even names names of people in the church to make it clear he was addressing specific people.

Romans 13:11-12
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.

Hebrews 1: 1In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Hebrews 10: 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,“In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.�

Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: And the dead Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: And so shall we ever be with the Lord.�

1 Timothy 6:14, "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Romans 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here.

1 Corinthians 7: What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short (NOT IN 2000 years time!). From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.� (1 Corinthians 10:11)

This is just Paul, the letters attributed to Paul, this doesn't include the other references to a quick return of Jesus by all of the authors in the NT. Jesus himself is quoted many times saying the time is at hand. We all know of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 which Jesus makes it crystal clear that the generation in which he lived would see his return in glory and with all the holy angels.





Paul often talked in his letters about Christ’s eminent return. That it was something very soon. Not 2000 years down the track. He was writing letters to people in his churches! If he meant 2000 years from now, don’t you think he would have said so? But no, he uses the words “we� “The lord is near�, “these last days� “We who are still alive�… To try to twist his words into something else is dishonest.

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.� (1 John 2:18)

“The end of all things is near…� (1 Peter 4:7)

...took place between 33 and 70 AD and provide 0 evidence, you are as misled as the Preterist and Historicist. You just don't fabricate like they do. It takes time to debunk those two but it's actually pretty easy.

Of course we have to take your spin on those things and your interpretation of what happened and how they happened. Everyone of course has different interpretations of the prophecies.

I have not been mislead by any preterests. I spent about a year on preterest websites examining their beliefs back in 1999. I witnessed many debates between them and futurists. They all had good arguments for their perspective beliefs, but none could come up with any truly convincing argument either way. So i chose to sit on the fence about it and just wait and see.

I do not recall a lot of the arguments, but I'm pretty confident they would be able to debate against you and it would not be quite so easy for you to debunk what they are saying.

I'm a stranger and plan to keep it that way. If you don't believe what I have to say about the lexicons, I'll provide the links and walk you through it. I certainly don't believe you who's hermeneutic pretty much amounts to, "just saying so" and then calling it facts.

I'm not interested in any links. I will go by the professionally translated English versions thank you very much. If you disagree with them, then please go to the professionals and have them correct it. I'm sure they would be grateful to correct any errors they have made.

[Black Sheep]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

I'm not interested in any links. I will go by the professionally translated English versions thank you very much

.

The links ARE the resources the 'professional' translators use!

Then please stop insisting that you know better than the professionals.

I never insisted ONCE that I know better than the pros. I'm as good as they are at it. I just said that I've been doing this for long enough to know the pros are misleading people into believing a whole lot of stuff that will never come to pass. The pros have an ax to grind. They support their theology. I don't. The pros don't use the Lexicons like I do. If they did, they would debunk their own teachings. Want examples???

Paul believed the end times prophecies were being fulfilled

Really? How do you come up with that in the verses you quoted.

1 Cor right away Paul is addressing the Corinthians clearly talking as if Christ’s return was coming in their life time.

Paul made this claim in Col 1:23:

I don't know WHO< WHY< or WHAT is inspiring you to make such a claim. Like I said. Biased people who don't have a hermeneutic can make the bible say whatever it is they want, and you're proof!

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

The funny thing is not one verse you've quoted suggest anything about these prophecies being fulfilled. (Mt. 24)

I'm not interested in your translations or your interpretations.

I'm not interested in debating anything with you! That being the case, I'll just ignore you from now on. You're not interested, and I'm not interested!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 57 by OnceConvinced]

I spent about a year on preterest websites examining their beliefs back in 1999. I witnessed many debates between them and futurists. They all had good arguments for their perspective beliefs, but none could come up with any truly convincing argument either way. So i chose to sit on the fence about it and just wait and see

.

Interesting. My experience is similar in some ways.

I was a strong believer that 'this generation' is the last one before Jesus returns. But a book caught my eye and I bought it, only to find it promoted the Preterist view I had never taken seriously.

Reading that book was the catalyst to my changing my understanding and eventually adopting a view I had never heard of before.

You see, I saw that the view I had held for years had clay feet, and yet had confirmed that the Preterist take was untenable also. I was thus left with a dilemma, where do I go from here? Neither view had credibility to me, although I understood where each was coming from.

I realised I had to start over, and see if that term, 'this generation', could mean something else, and if so, try to discover what that could possibly be.

That was before the days of computers, so I could not just google to find what was out there. It was time-consuming but rewarding work using a bible concordance to put together relevant verses.

My search was not in vain and resulted in the recognition that 'genea', 'generation', was used in the NT in ways other than the usual way that limits it to people living in a small and specific period of time.

So, unlike you, I did find something that was convincing, and so do not sit on the fence but advocate for it instead.

[postroad]

[Replying to postroad]

I suppose this text make Jesus some sort of hypocrite then? Weeping over a city and its inhabitants because they refused to accept him. Knowing full well that they in no way would be enabled to do so in order that prophecy immediate and future could be fulfilled.

No, just because you can't get it right doesn't make Jesus a hypocrite, and your reply really doesn't make sense to me. It isn't that difficult to figure out WHAT generation Jesus is talking about. You just don't want to accept the context, which is about the end of the age, and the historical evidence, which DOESN'T exist, and the grammar that prove NONE of this has passed. It really is a no-brainer! You are more interested in upholding what you already believe than look for, and find, the truth. I'm not even sure what you're getting at posting Luke 19:41-44. And I have to wonder if you understand the passage at all.

Think about the text a little harder. Have you ruled out the possibility that the conversation recorded was fabricated by the author?

Are you really going to stand on the concept that the author was recorded as having Jesus speaking about a multi milleneum future generation having their children dashed to the ground because of the unbelief of first century Jerusalem?

And what's with the weeping. According to scripture Christ's death was a predetermined thing planned from before creation.

Luke 12:49-50New International Version (NIV)

Not Peace but Division

49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!



Revelation 13:8

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world

Acts 4:27-28New International Version (NIV)

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

John 17:12

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.