Illegal Immigration

[WinePusher]

It seems like illegal immigration is going to be the main issue for the 2016 election cycle. First we have Donald Trump saying that Mexican immigrants are mainly rapists and criminals, and then we have a young woman from San Francisco being killed by an illegal immigrant.

Questions:

1) Does it make sense to get rid of sanctuary cities given the death of Kate Steinle?

2) What is the truth regarding illegal Mexican immigrants and crime rates?

3) As a compassionate and largely Christian nation that was created by colonialists, and immigrants afterwards, what should our laws be regarding illegal immigration.

[micatala]

[Replying to post 7 by WinePusher]

Yes I get this is not the only case(sorry couldn't get the video to playback). There was a DPS statistic that listed a 3000 homicide figure for immigrants over a 6 year period it did not specify by region so it would be hard to breakdown. The question is how many of these illegal immigrant homicides are happening in sanctuary cities vs non sanctuary cities and how many of those charges results in convictions. San Francisco's murder rate has declined since becoming a sanctuary city instead of going up.

Well, we could do a quick back of the envelope calculation based on this assumption. Feel free to correct anything.

3000 over 6 years is 500 per year.

As I recall, there are something like 15,000 murders each year in the U.S. 500 out of 15,000 is 1 out of 30.

There are reportedly around 12 million illegals in a country of something over 300 million people, but I believe a lot less than 350 million. 12 out of 360 million would be 1 out of 30 so there is a bit higher ratio than that of illegals in the country.

Thus, illegals appear to be murdering people at a slightly lower rate than average.

[joejoeson]

1) Does it make sense to get rid of sanctuary cities given the death of Kate Steinle?

2) What is the truth regarding illegal Mexican immigrants and crime rates?

3) As a compassionate and largely Christian nation that was created by colonialists, and immigrants afterwards, what should our laws be regarding illegal immigration.

First off you horribly misquoted Trump, he also said that Mexicans love him and he'll win the latino vote, and he also has a commanding lead in the GOP. So let's try and be fair and not generalize what Trump is saying.

1) Yes, since illegal immigration is illegal.
2) No one really knows because they are undocumented, hence why it is such a problem. No one knows how many are coming over the border, and even when they are arrested they are either not deported or are deported and sneak back in, just like the killer of Kate Steinle who was deported 5 times.
3) European immigrants had to go through health screening processes but it was all still legal. If we had laws on "illegal" immigration, it wouldn't be illegal, it would be legal immigration. The problem is the government doesn't want them to be legal, for reasons too complicated to go into here, suffice to say, if they were legal, they'd be subject to our laws, which is not the intention.

Here is a thread that you can debate me on: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=28134
And if you would like to email me: juliancarmen@gmx.com

[Haven]

1) Does it make sense to get rid of sanctuary cities given the death of Kate Steinle?

No. That was one crime committed by one murderous individual who happened to be an undocumented immigrant. Deporting all undocumented Americans because of the action of one person would be just as absurd as deporting all U.S.-born European-Americans because of the actions of a U.S.-born European-American serial killer. It's simply racism to suggest otherwise.

I support getting rid of "sanctuary cities" for a different reason -- I support giving permanent resident status to all undocumented workers currently living in the U.S. and creating an easy path to entry, work, and eventually citizenship for all who wish to move here. There should be no need for "sanctuary cities" because the entire country should be a sanctuary.

2) What is the truth regarding illegal Mexican immigrants and crime rates?

1. Why focus on Mexican immigrants specifically? What about undocumented migrants from Canada, Europe, Africa, Asia, and anywhere else in the world? Why does the right always want to focus on Mexicans?

2. There's no link between Mexican-American population numbers and crime rates. Some of the most dangerous areas of the country are predominately white, and some of the safest are predominately Mexican-American. Furthermore, there is no indication that undocumented workers commit more crimes than American citizens.

3) As a compassionate and largely Christian nation that was created by colonialists, and immigrants afterwards, what should our laws be regarding illegal immigration.

"Colonialist" is just "illegal immigrant" by a different name. The Native population of this continent didn't ask for European colonists to come here, and they certainly didn't ask for the murderous and larcenous rampage that the colonists went on after arriving. The "colonists" were by far the most damaging illegal immigrants ever to set foot on this continent.

I support a fairly open border: anyone who wants to come here (and doesn't have a violent criminal past or ties to extremist groups) should be allowed to come here. Create a guest worker program for people who want to stay for a short time and work, and an easy path to citizenship for people who want to settle here.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 10 by micatala]

The only issue is those were charges not convictions. so it does give us a ball park estimate, but the data on immigration and crime is very obfuscated.

[micatala]

[Replying to post 10 by micatala]

The only issue is those were charges not convictions. so it does give us a ball park estimate, but the data on immigration and crime is very obfuscated.

So, there are only 3,000 charges? I wonder what percentage of murders result in charges. I would guess the percentage is pretty high. Also, of murders that do not result in charges, it is probably reasonable to assume the percentage of those done by illegal immigrants is about the same as the percentage of charges that involve illegal immigrants. So, as a ball park estimate, the difference between convictions and charges is probably not that relevant to the overall rate.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

I come from construction, where it was, it was kinduva given to think "them" weren't as good at it. They were "takin' our jobs". And if I was being honest, some racism - if not overt, then thought real quiet like. I must fess to having me any condition I accuse others of, but I swear it, after Goat schools ya, well you been schooled.

What I'm here to tell though, is that I lament a system that would accept undocumented workers, or illegal aliens, in order to exploit them unfairly, or unjustly. My experience is that where these undocumented workers are employed, the standard of living, nay the standard of working for "real amuricans" (said for effect) goes down. I've seen safety rules ignored, a bit of the "slave" effect, and repeated threats to deport or just fire anyone who dares speak against a given policy, or who seeks to improve the conditions of workers. (Let's face it, we're all workers, who hafta set an alarm clock, or it is the pretty thing's gonna wake us up, a-wonderin' why it is, we ain't at it)

I ain't cool with that. My position is that a worker should be as safe as possible, compensated to a fair standard, and most of all, respected. I say that, knowing as a stupidintendent that I was a cog in the corporate wheel. But I dug my ditches. I shoveled my asphalt. I swung my hammer. And my other'n. I've sweated paychecks so short, even I had to look down to see 'em.

I lament a system where people work all week, only to find themselves hungry on Tuesday. I reject the idea that corporate heads should have houses across the globe, while the worker can't afford to rent him even one.

And I really hate that such conditions could occur in the USA, a nation some consider "God blessed", or similar terms.

It doesn't take an agronomist to know that yes, competition's good, and the "free market", and "I went to Harvard, on daddy's nickel". Those are fine and grand notions, that I wouldn't dare to cuss. I just wanna tell that we as a society, a moral society, and if ya wanna tell it, a Christian society, should come to grips with the gross poverty of workers, laborers, and others who ain't got 'em no expense account.

Obama got him a lot of grief for that "you didn't build it" statement. But ya know what, you didn't build society. We built society. OUR taxes paid for the infrastructure that moves "your" product. Your taxes, high they may be, and our taxes, eating into our grocery money they may be. We all paid for that island you own in the Bahamas, the South Pacific, or Manhatten. This world is ours. Not yours, not mine, not theirs, but ours.

Conclusions?

What "Christian" nation can sit by, while folks starve for food, for liberty, for wages?

Unless it is, there's legal limits to how many fish it is, Jesus can catch.

[WinePusher]

First off you horribly misquoted Trump, he also said that Mexicans love him and he'll win the latino vote, and he also has a commanding lead in the GOP. So let's try and be fair and not generalize what Trump is saying.

First off, are you really defending Donald Trump? Good luck with that. Yea, I know he said he'll win the Latino vote and that Latino's love him. I know many Latino people, and they all hate him.

To be fair though, his comment was by in large correct as there are many criminals coming across the border but it was horribly worded.

2) No one really knows because they are undocumented, hence why it is such a problem. No one knows how many are coming over the border, and even when they are arrested they are either not deported or are deported and sneak back in, just like the killer of Kate Steinle who was deported 5 times.

Yes, I agree with your point here.

3) European immigrants had to go through health screening processes but it was all still legal. If we had laws on "illegal" immigration, it wouldn't be illegal, it would be legal immigration. The problem is the government doesn't want them to be legal, for reasons too complicated to go into here, suffice to say, if they were legal, they'd be subject to our laws, which is not the intention.

The issue isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. By definition, European settlers and colonists were illegal. They illegally set up camp in Native American territory, they illegally took land from the Native Americans. Now this obviously doesn't justify the current waves of illegal immigration that are taking place, but it does provide a different perspective. This nation was founded by foreigners and was built by immigrants. This fact alone should cause anybody to hesitate before buying into the xenophobic arguments pushed by some people on the right. While the border should be secure with a massive wall, law abiding illegal immigrants who are already here should be given amnesty and the whole attitude Americans have towards immigration in general needs to change.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 16 by WinePusher]

We also have to look at why people are coming over.

1. There are jobs for them over here that Americans are providing(most of these illegal immigrants are not criminals)
2 Drug Trafficking

A sub category could be human trafficking but this is largely a byproduct of the first two.

If we increasingly crackdown on those employing people illegally and alter our tactics on the war on drugs we cut down significantly in two main areas of illegal immigration. This is much more cost effective than building a giant wall across our border.

[Paprika]

It seems like illegal immigration is going to be the main issue for the 2016 election cycle. First we have Donald Trump saying that Mexican immigrants are mainly rapists and criminals, and then we have a young woman from San Francisco being killed by an illegal immigrant.

Questions:

1) Does it make sense to get rid of sanctuary cities given the death of Kate Steinle?

2) What is the truth regarding illegal Mexican immigrants and crime rates?

3) As a compassionate and largely Christian nation that was created by colonialists, and immigrants afterwards, what should our laws be regarding illegal immigration.

1) It makes sense to get rid of them anyway since they basically encouraging the undermining of the rule of law. Through them people are aiding and abetting criminals - those who break the law by entering illegally.

2) See Ann Coulter's book.

3) As a nation created by colonialists, you should be aware of what happened to the Native American cultures when the colonialists/immigrants arrived from Europe. Ponder then the likely consequences for your culture, your children, and their children's children, and be appropriately compassionate.

[enviousintheeverafter]

What is the truth regarding illegal Mexican immigrants and crime rates?

All indications are that its pretty much the exact opposite of what Donald Trump has (irresponsibly, offensively) claimed. Donald Trump wrong, potentially lying? Imagine that! But consider this-

-Among men age 18-39, the incarceration rate for natives in 2000 was 5 times higher than the incarceration rate of foreign born (3.5 to .7)

-The foreign-born incarceration rate in 2000 was nearly two-and-a-half times less than the 1.7 percent rate for native-born non-Hispanic white men and almost 17 times less than the 11.6 percent rate for native-born black men

-Native-born Hispanic men were nearly 7 times more likely to be in prison than foreign-born Hispanic men in 2000, while the incarceration rate of native-born non-Hispanic white men was almost 3 times higher than that of foreign-born white men. Foreign-born Mexicans had an incarceration rate of only 0.7 percent in 2000—more than 8 times lower than the 5.9 percent rate of native-born males of Mexican descent. Foreign-born Salvadoran and Guatemalan men had an incarceration rate of 0.5 percent, compared to 3.0 percent of native-born males of Salvadoran and Guatemalan descent. Foreign-born Chinese/Taiwanese men had an extremely low incarceration rate of 0.2 percent in 2000, which was three-and-a-half times lower than the 0.7 percent incarceration rate of native-born men of Chinese/Taiwanese descent.

And in general, more immigration correlates with less crime, not the other way around-

-Between 1990 and 2013, the foreign-born share of the U.S. population grew from 7.9 percent to 13.1 percent and the number of unauthorized immigrants more than tripled from 3.5 million to 11.2 million.

-During the same period, FBI data indicate that the violent crime rate declined 48 percent—which included falling rates of aggravated assault, robbery, rape, and murder. Likewise, the property crime rate fell 41 percent, including declining rates of motor vehicle theft, larceny/robbery, and burglary.

(data from the American Immigration Council report, by Rubén G. Rumbaut, Ph.D. and Walter A. Ewing, Ph.D., and can be viewed here)