Matthew 12:40
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rstrats
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Matthew 12:40
Post #1Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion� with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that the phrase “x� days and “x�nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the “x� days and at least parts of the “x� nights?
Post #51
[Replying to post 48 by rstrats]
"no where in your "documentation" did you show any examples of a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights from the first century or before when they absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights."
shnarkle: Actually I did. Both were before the first century and both showed conclusively that one could not claim that these examples were referring to "at least a part of each one of a specific number of nights". One shows that the entire night was included and necessarily meant that it was the entire night rather than just a part of the night. The other shows that this method of measuring time was just as true for years as well. It was also documented that this wasn't just an exclusive method for semitic peoples, but the Egyptians used it as well.
"no where in your "documentation" did you show any examples of a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights from the first century or before when they absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights."
shnarkle: Actually I did. Both were before the first century and both showed conclusively that one could not claim that these examples were referring to "at least a part of each one of a specific number of nights". One shows that the entire night was included and necessarily meant that it was the entire night rather than just a part of the night. The other shows that this method of measuring time was just as true for years as well. It was also documented that this wasn't just an exclusive method for semitic peoples, but the Egyptians used it as well.
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rstrats
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Post #52
shnarkle,
re: "Actually I did. Both were before the first century and both showed conclusively that one could not claim that these examples were referring to 'at least a part of each one of a specific number of nights'".
Nor could it be conclusively claimed that they weren't. I'm looking for phrase which states a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when the days and nights absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.
re: "Actually I did. Both were before the first century and both showed conclusively that one could not claim that these examples were referring to 'at least a part of each one of a specific number of nights'".
Nor could it be conclusively claimed that they weren't. I'm looking for phrase which states a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when the days and nights absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights.
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rstrats
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Post #54
Perhaps a further rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear: Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language, there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make that assertion.
Post #55
[Replying to post 52 by rstrats]
There is no example anywhere when "three days and three nights" is uses as idiomatic of less than three complete days and nights. The idiom is "three days", or "three years", but just because "three days" is being used doesn't mean that it is necessarily less than three complete days, e.g. the three days the shewbread is left out before it is removed. The seven days of quarantine after defilement etc. Were it the case that seven days could be interpreted according to the idiom it would defeat the purpose of the quarantine, i.e. preventing the spread of disease.
There is no example anywhere when "three days and three nights" is uses as idiomatic of less than three complete days and nights. The idiom is "three days", or "three years", but just because "three days" is being used doesn't mean that it is necessarily less than three complete days, e.g. the three days the shewbread is left out before it is removed. The seven days of quarantine after defilement etc. Were it the case that seven days could be interpreted according to the idiom it would defeat the purpose of the quarantine, i.e. preventing the spread of disease.
Post #57
rstrats wrote: shnarkle,
re: "There is no example anywhere ..."
So I wonder where the 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates get their reason for saying that it is a common Jewish idiom?
Precisely because it isn't an idiom, i.e. it's literal. It's three complete days and nights. Now count backwards from the sixth day (the weekly sabbath e.g.[under Jewish reckoning] Saturday, the preceding Saturday night, Friday, the preceding Friday night, Thursday, the preceding Thursday night which places the burial at sunset on Wednesday evening.
This agrees with the gospel accounts of the last week of Jesus' life as well as the biblical as well as historical evidence which indicates that the preparation day fell on Wednesday that year. This also erases any so-called inconsistencies or contradictions in the text with regards to the preparation of spices and when they rested in accordance with the commandment to observe the Sabbath. I already pointed this out in a previous post.
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rstrats
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Post #58
I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language.
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rstrats
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Post #60
Matthew 12:40 quotes the Messiah saying that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights. A majority of folks believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week. This period of time, however, would only allow for 2 night times. To account for this discrepancy, it is frequently "argued" that the verse is using common Jewish idiomatic language of the time.
I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb) knows of any writing which shows a phrase from the first century or before which states a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when the actual period of time couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
And remember, the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. There are other topics that do that. However, for those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language I should think that one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.
I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb) knows of any writing which shows a phrase from the first century or before which states a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when the actual period of time couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
And remember, the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. There are other topics that do that. However, for those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language I should think that one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.
