When the Bible does not promote or condone, then what?

[micatala]

This thread is prompted by the often-made statement.

I have asked you to provide any evidence "from the Bible" (since you have offered that you are a priest), where sodomy/perderasty-homosexuality-Gay, is celebrated, supported, condoned, promoted, or preached as acceptable, anywhere in the New Testament

The implication is that, since the Bible nowhere promotes, condones, or 'celebrates' homosexuality, this is further indication it should be condemned.

Question for debate:

Is this a valid conclusion?

Are there other examples of behaviors, views, etc. that are not promoted, condoned, or celebrated in the Bible, but that Christians typically do not condemn?

[BeHereNow]

micatala Divorce should be condemned equally with homosexuality?

Why isn't it?

This might be too simplistic, but I think primarily it is the yuck factor.
Also:
With divorce, I think many see a “need” for it.
Mortality rate down, longevity up, more likelihood a relationship with wear itself out.
Shrinking world, more diversity, more likely your first choice will not be your last.
I attended a church where many people (women in particular) believed remarriage for them would be impossible, in the event they would become divorced. Some of them did become divorced. Some of those changed their minds, some did not, so far.

THese examples are different than the divorce example in that almost no one would consider these sinful. Why would we consider divorce and homosexuality sinful and not these?

For myself, I draw a sharp line between OT and NT.
OT is extremely significant historically, but has only minor spiritual significance. I realize many Christians would not agree with me, but I also know I am not alone. Many non-evangelical, non-fundamentalist, Christians would agree with me, or so they have said.

A central message of Jesus was that he fulfilled the law. He reduced the importance of the law. He spoke against the legalism of the Scribes and Pharisees. The minutia of the law was no longer important. Jots and titles lost their significance. God had expectations, moral truths to be obeyed, but very basic types of things. Things that could be seen in the hearts of men. Paul said But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

With the advent of science, what had been viewed as divine imperatives became merely pragmatic health laws.

There must be a little anti-Semitism in there too. In an attempt to separate themselves from “those who killed Christ” (their opinion, not mine), many Christians have rejected the significance of the OT as a way of rejecting Judaism.

I’m sure there are other reasons as well.

[micatala]

Divorce should be condemned equally with homosexuality?

Why isn't it?

This might be too simplistic, but I think primarily it is the yuck factor.

It is hard not to agree with this. Certainly the vehemence of the reaction of some to homosexuality as compared to the reaction to other sins would lead one to think something else is going on.

Also, it is fair to say that many who are not particularly religious harbor strong anti-gay feelings. Most of the 'school yard taunting' that one might hear in most any school in America I don't think has a religious basis.

THese examples are different than the divorce example in that almost no one would consider these sinful. Why would we consider divorce and homosexuality sinful and not these?

For myself, I draw a sharp line between OT and NT.

I would not disagree. The 'letter of the law' is not what is important for CHristians, IMV, but rather ones attitude or 'heart.' I would argue that a sincere and faithful homosexual, who has examined his or her heart and can come to no other conclusion than God made him or her the way she is is not sinful. Such a person is acting in faith, and as long as they follow the overall command to 'love one another' and 'love God', I do not see that they would stand in condemnation by God. They certainly should not stand in condemnation by other believers.

The NT passages that speak of homosexuality also list a host of other sins and describe these as being the result of turning away from God. It seems to me that a correct reading is that it is the turning away from God that is the problem, and the sins are only the symptoms. Again, it is typically only homosexuality that is singled out for special treatment, although to be fair, some of these are illegal, like murder. Many however, are not. They are typically no laws against being greedy, for example.

[melikio]

Also, it is fair to say that many who are not particularly religious harbor strong anti-gay feelings. Most of the 'school yard taunting' that one might hear in most any school in America I don't think has a religious basis.

I don't necessarily agree with this; I think more study is required to to know why kids tend to be involved with such "taunting" in the first place.

Personally, I believe/think that people only teach their kids that "homosexuality is "wrong", rather than teach them how to deal properly with people who are homosexual. I think that ultimately leads to something ingrained that is almost borderline neurotic. Kids simply cannot handle it, due to some religious view placed upon children or hatred instilled by parents, the "taunting" is possibly (most likely) the ONLY way they know to actually handle homosexuality. One things I've noticed from many I've known to be the "taunters", is that they aren't so sure about themselves sexually. Many carry that "projection" thing sell into adulthood.

Religion can be a catalyst for attitudes which likely do not seem to be related to what the person was originally taught. In some cases I think parts of religion can be used by the secular minded, to promote negativity, where they might wish to. (Religion is a POWERFUL tool, even if one doesn't believe in it.)

-Mel-

[micatala]

I don't necessarily agree with this; I think more study is required to to know why kids tend to be involved with such "taunting" in the first place.

I wouldn't disagree. I am just basing my comments on personal experience. The kids I went to high school with who taunted or degraded gays were not typically ones who cared much about religions, or who had strongly held religious beliefs. In some cases, I know the parents were not religious at all.

It would be good to get some actual data on this, however.

[melikio]

The kids I went to high school with who taunted or degraded gays were not typically ones who cared much about religions, or who had strongly held religious beliefs.

Yeah, and I'm not going to question your experiences, we can have some specific situations which shape us, that are just different.

But I often wonder why so many Christians are basically "silent" when it comes to defending homosexual people against unnecessarily cruel or abjectly unjust actions. I've silently endured many a session where people I knew were Christians, basically ignored the evil many homosexuals were subjected to (for no good reason whatsoever).

You see, I think a massive number of Christian people are guilty of the sin of omission (not speaking up to defend the PERSON being unjustly assailed), when it comes to the overall treatment many homosexual people receive.

And it's common to see people who are otherwise very "sweet-spirited" (Christians), sound like absolute ruthless monsters as soon as they have to deal with addressing homosexuals and homosexuality. Seriously, it is one of the primary reasons I eventually left the church I was going to.

I can understand what many mean by "repentance", and most of the time I don't think they are crazy or unreasonable to see things that way; many Christians cannot condone "homosexuality"; I get that, and it goes to the deepest levels of understanding in my heart. But so many times it would literally BREAK my heart, to hear people who thought they did love me, prove that they really couldn't love me. It just seemed that they'd been taught to hate homosexual people, as much as what they viewed to be a sin. What I sensed mostly was repulsion or rejection.

At a certain point, I knew that I couldn't change anything about what specific Christians tended to think about homosexuality and/or homosexual people. So often, I wanted to take the cliche', "Love the sinner, hate the sin.", and cram it down the throat of the person who would so confidently say it; especially since they already proved to me that they really couldn't love someone who just happened to be homosexual.

And that is where (for me) the distrust of what many interpret from the Bible about homosexuality and homosexuals originates. And certainly, I would have traded one sexual-orientation for the other, just to escape the rejection and tentative-compassion related to being a homosexual person. It's hard to say just what "Christian" love is (as it pertains to homosexual people), but I can definitely say that I haven't sensed much compassion and grace from Christians (no matter how "straight" or "repentant" I've been). And eventually, you want little or nothing to do with people that you are nearly certain will HATE you, if they find out about your sexual orientation.

And this is why so many (homosexual) people HIDE in sorrow and discouragement (not necessarily "shame"), things they realize (accept) they cannot change. For many (especially those who are younger) the ultimate relief is taking their own life. I know some (even certain Christians) wouldn't care if every gay person disappeared from the face of the earth; they would probably see it as God's will (and could likely support their attitude "biblically"). I would not say anything like the things I'm saying now, if I'd experienced MOST Christians being kind, compassionate and just toward homosexual people, but "sadly" that isn't what I've seen.

Sometimes, you wish you could just start life over and with a little luck, not end up with a homosexual-orientation. Most times, you realize and remember the struggles, to include the fear of rejection, and the actual rejection you've endured. Then the struggle is eventually transformed into being able to see yourself as lovable human being; which for homosexuals isn't necessarily evident when dealing with the typical Christian. And once you get into a few encounters and experiences where you've been "dehumanized" by someone else, likely the last thing on your mind is the fact that you are "homosexual"; you just want to be loved (unconditionally).

Now, what I've shared above can be a tear-jerker to some, but that is one "sketch" of the very real effect of dealing with being mistreated by anyone (not only Christians). My goal has always been to put a human face on what some seem to have trouble "humanizing". But it is important to do that, otherwise we end up not really communicating anything meaningful to anyone. We learn to state rules, and regulations (what we believe is "right"), without considering how those very things affect others.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

1John wrote:

be here now wrote:
Biblically (NT) speaking, any person who marries a divorced person, or is divorced and remarries, is just as sinful as a homosexual.
Can it be seen any other way?

No.

Anyone that does not repent stays where they are at.

I see we have some agreement that both divorce and homosexuality should be considered 'equally sinful'. Both would require 'repentance' in that in both situations, the parties need to change what they are doing, the consequences of not doing so presumably being God's punishment, separation from God, etc.

Divorce and homosexuality are both examples which seem not to be condoned, and certainly not promoted or celebrated in the Bible. I think we are agree that the first is widely accepted or at least tolerated in most Christian churches, and the latter much less so. Both BHN and 1John seem to say that this is not right. Divorce should be condemned equally with homosexuality?

Why isn't it?

What Bible do you read? Divorce and adultery and sexual practices of many kainds are soundly condemned throughout the Bible. In Micah we have the essence of it all: I hate divorce says the Lord and the RETURN of the fathers to their children is an amazingly appropriate idea, considering the "modern world."

Jesus askes this supposedly smart guy: You don't know what Born-Again means? It is claer from that pasaage, that it was a common idea in theological and practical minds.

Repentance is coming out of a situation needing to be freed of. Obviously NO pun intended.

The Bible condones and proclaims repentance from beginning to end.

Christ Jesus highlights many important things. The cleansing of evil by war, is no longer a main tool. Now, it is for the heart and mind of the individual person to accept or rejcst repentance and return.

The story in the Bible is not very wide. Repent and follow the Lord: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and take care of the poor and needy. Returning over and over again to "what" it is to be in the condition of a follower of the God of Israel is not the aspect to dwell on redefining, as it is expected that confession, or declaration is made and actions are implemented.

James and the writers of the New Testament knew this as a matter of fact from "knowing" Jesus.

Showing your faith by your actions is very important. Repentance is not a theory. It is an actual fact of motion and thought. It changes the direction of the the person in mind and deed. There is no movement for example, of adulteres forming their own culture and community identification, and demanding that they now exist in a new definition or classification of society. Certainly Christianity has been consistent in seeing the need for those violating Biblical mandates as having to "come back to" a Biblical perspective on things. The Bible does not promote or condone "a person doing whatever they want to" and demanding that fellowship in the body of " believers" be applied to that declarartion.

There is a consistency in the Biblical record. Commitment, violation often times of that commitment, and a re-union between those that violate God's will by their actions, deeds and according to Christ Jesus (God), in though as well.

The Bible does not condone or promote UN-repentance and certainly not NON-repentance..

Even for those that see the Bible as allegorical, metaphors, or myth, the following is heart-wrenchingly appropriate. To all who seek God, through Christ Jesus and with the Holy Spirit guiding them.

David . . . a man "after" God's own heart:

Psalm 51
A psalm of David, regarding the time Nathan the prophet came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.
1
Have mercy on me, O God,
because of your unfailing love.
Because of your great compassion,
blot out the stain of my sins.
2
Wash me clean from my guilt.
Purify me from my sin.

3
For I recognize my shameful deeds--
they haunt me day and night.

4
Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.

5
For I was born a sinner--
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

6
But you desire honesty from the heart,
so you can teach me to be wise in my inmost being.

7
Purify me from my sins, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

8
Oh, give me back my joy again;
you have broken me--
now let me rejoice.

9
Don't keep looking at my sins.
Remove the stain of my guilt.

10
Create in me a clean heart, O God.
Renew a right spirit within me.

11
Do not banish me from your presence,
and don't take your Holy Spirit from me.

12
Restore to me again the joy of your salvation,
and make me willing to obey you.

13
Then I will teach your ways to sinners,
and they will return to you.

14
Forgive me for shedding blood, O God who saves;
then I will joyfully sing of your forgiveness.

15
Unseal my lips, O Lord,
that I may praise you.

16
You would not be pleased with sacrifices,
or I would bring them.
If I brought you a burnt offering,
you would not accept it.

17
The sacrifice you want is a broken spirit.
A broken and repentant heart, O God,
you will not despise.

18
Look with favor on Zion and help her;
rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.

19
Then you will be pleased with worthy sacrifices
and with our whole burnt offerings;
and bulls will again be sacrificed on your altar.

[micatala]

Divorce and homosexuality are both examples which seem not to be condoned, and certainly not promoted or celebrated in the Bible. I think we are agree that the first is widely accepted or at least tolerated in most Christian churches, and the latter much less so. Both BHN and 1John seem to say that this is not right. Divorce should be condemned equally with homosexuality?

Why isn't it?

What Bible do you read? Divorce and adultery and sexual practices of many kainds are soundly condemned throughout the Bible. In Micah we have the essence of it all: I hate divorce says the Lord and the RETURN of the fathers to their children is an amazingly appropriate idea, considering the "modern world."

You are missing my point. I am not asking what the Bible says. I am asking why, given what the Bible says, today's CHristians typically only condemn homosexuality and not divorce.

Yes, I agree the Bible condemns divorce, except in some passages of the OT. I agree that the Bible speaks against homosexual practices at least in some situations, although I do not think given the translational problems and the qualifications that are given in the NT passages that the condemnation of homosexuality as we understand it today is as clear-cut as many would like us to believe.

Regardless, even if we accept that both homosexuality and divorce are 'condemned equally' in the Bible, they are clearly not condemned equally by Christians.

Why?

[melikio]

You see, "REPENT" is an answer, but not the universal answer to every question asked.

When someone asks why something is/isn't, "repent" is not a real answer.

Without a doubt there are times/places where repentance is applicable as an answer, but not every time there is a gap where the answer is hard to find or understand.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

1John wrote:

micatala wrote:
Divorce and homosexuality are both examples which seem not to be condoned, and certainly not promoted or celebrated in the Bible. I think we are agree that the first is widely accepted or at least tolerated in most Christian churches, and the latter much less so. Both BHN and 1John seem to say that this is not right. Divorce should be condemned equally with homosexuality?

Why isn't it?


What Bible do you read? Divorce and adultery and sexual practices of many kainds are soundly condemned throughout the Bible. In Micah we have the essence of it all: I hate divorce says the Lord and the RETURN of the fathers to their children is an amazingly appropriate idea, considering the "modern world."


You are missing my point. I am not asking what the Bible says. I am asking why, given what the Bible says, today's CHristians typically only condemn homosexuality and not divorce.

It's only in the secular realm that divorce has won the day. I know of no Christian Church that celebrates or condones a divorce? And certainly no way is there a celebration of sexual perversion. Christians are still consistent in preaching against adultery, divorce, porno, sexual promiscuity and homosexuality. In that order in every Church I have ever worked in or atteneded. Easy divorce is only secular.

Yes, I agree the Bible condemns divorce, except in some passages of the OT. I agree that the Bible speaks against homosexual practices at least in some situations, although I do not think given the translational problems and the qualifications that are given in the NT passages that the condemnation of homosexuality as we understand it today is as clear-cut as many would like us to believe.

As "liberals" understand the Bible. Liberals have proven that their idea of Biblical truth is suspect; to say the least.

Regardless, even if we accept that both homosexuality and divorce are 'condemned equally' in the Bible, they are clearly not condemned equally by Christians.

Why?

Because of the silence on accepting homosexuality and same-gender sex acts "in the Bible." There is no shred of support for same-gender sexuality in the Bible. None.

Adulterers seem to be "returned" to the life they should live. God hates divorce it says in the Bible, but I have presented what the Bible has in it about what God desires, and that is a contrite, remorseful and repentant person. "Born Again" takes on the meaning Jesus talked about; as one that should be a concept easily known about.

Gays and Lesbians demand to be allowed to do what they do, without anyone daring to say anything in disapproval. Well, OK, maybe in the secular world, but there is absolutely no support that the Bible sees sexual orientation the way liberals do.

What seems to be either despised or intellectually unfathomable to liberals/progressives - yade-yada - is the concept of repentance and forgiveness. In fact it seems quite clear that just holding that ideology of a person admitting they have done something unacceptable and needs to change their ways, is seen as a hate crime. To God it is welcomed and promoted and condoned, but to thiose that willingly reject the Bible's influence, will not only not tolerate people that believe that, but actively move to silence their speech and activities about it.

[1John2_26]

Let's take a look at this:

You see, "REPENT" is an answer, but not the universal answer to every question asked.

Repentance is the universal answer to walking with the God of the Bible once a person has "sinned against the Lord." Probably the main reason why certain kinds of people deescalate, alter and redefine what is and what isn's acceptable beliefs and behaviors.

When someone asks why something is/isn't, "repent" is not a real answer.

Well, it seems quite clear in Gospel ideology that repentance is "the" key.

Without a doubt there are times/places where repentance is applicable as an answer, but not every time there is a gap where the answer is hard to find or understand.

This thread is about what the Bible promotes and condones. Repentance is promoted and condoned; and rebellion or inventing excuses for sin to be acceptable is not promoted or condoned. The story of Adam and Eve shows us that from the start of Biblical reports, God does not allow for excuses or rebellion to go unchallenged.