Why is being called a Liberal an insult?

Two hot topics for the price of one

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How would you feel if someone called you a liberal?

Insulted
2
11%
Proud
7
37%
Ambivalent
10
53%
 
Total votes: 19

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OccamsRazor
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Why is being called a Liberal an insult?

Post #1

Post by OccamsRazor »

Certain people on these forums use the term Liberal as if it were a weapon. I have been told that I am a Leftie or a Liberal and by implication I should be insulted by such a label.

Here is a quick definition
American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language wrote:1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
I would feel complemented to be labelled such.
In fact some years ago my wife called me "liberal to the core", she meant it as a complement and I was proud to be described in this way.

Which leads me to my question. Why is being called a liberal used as an insult and would people would use it in this fashion be insulted if they were described using the definition above?

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Post #31

Post by 1John2_26 »

From liberals:
MTV 'Popetown' ad draws complaint

DAVID RISING
Associated Press

BERLIN - A German conservative leader said Tuesday he has filed a complaint with prosecutors accusing music channel MTV of disparaging Christianity in an ad for its Vatican parody cartoon "Popetown," which depicts the pope as a pogo-stick riding brat.

Joachim Herrmann, a senior official with the Christian Social Union party, said it was inappropriate for MTV to have run magazine ads such as one before Easter that depicted a smiling Christ sitting in an armchair in front of an empty cross, with the slogan "Laugh instead of hanging around."

"Ten days before Easter, it was a particular provocation," Herrmann said.

Michael Grunwald, a spokesman for Berlin prosecutors, said Herrmann's complaint would be evaluated to determine whether there is enough evidence to proceed with an investigation against MTV.

An MTV spokesman was not immediately available for comment, but the station has previously it stands by its decision to air the program in Germany starting May 3, saying though it doesn't appeal to everyone, it "neither disparages nor insults faiths."

The British Broadcasting Corp. originally commissioned the program but decided in 2004 not to show it after protests from church leaders. It was screened last year in New Zealand, despite a church-led campaign against the broadcaster.

"Popetown" has also attracted controversy in Germany ahead of its airing, especially in the heavily Roman Catholic state of Bavaria, where Hermann's party is dominant. The Bavaria-only CSU is part of Germany's governing coalition.

The show features corrupt cardinals, a buxom nun and an infantile pope who bounces around the Vatican on a pogo stick.

By filing his complaint about the ad for the show, Herrmann indicated he wanted to "send a signal" that there would be a fight once the program hits the air.

Catholic bishops in Germany, the homeland of Pope Benedict XVI, have also joined the fray. They have said that they hope that MTV changes its mind about broadcasting the show and that "the religious feelings of Christians in our country will be respected."

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ST88
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Post #32

Post by ST88 »

MagusYanam wrote:Personally, given the figure of Jesus Christ which we are meant to emulate, I cannot understand how one can be a Christian and not a social liberal (by today's definition). Jesus was not concerned with the affairs of one nation, but rather with the entire world, he was a pacifist by his actions and he was foremostly concerned with social justice (for the poor, the meek and the sick).
Magus, what would you say to the argument that charity should not be institutionalized, but personalized? That is, the only way to experience charity "correctly" is to give of yourself as Jesus did, not to allow the government to cut your paycheck in half (let's say) and distribute it among its own favored charities. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a life led like Jesus' would involve personal, hand-to-hand charity from what you had to give. A "liberal" (U.S. term) government would take from those who have and hand it out to those who have not, i.e. all the charity "work" is done by a middleman and all you give up is cash. How is this a religious ideal, when the religion is being sold as a personal save?
Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings forgotten. -- George Orwell, 1984

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OccamsRazor
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Post #33

Post by OccamsRazor »

ST88, I am not sure about this assertion.

In the the UK I may vote for the Liberal Democrat party as opposed to the Conservative party. I could therefore say that I personally am voting for a higher tax rate (i.e. a reduction in my own paycheck) to pay for welfare for the less able. Even though the money is taken by a middle man (the Inland Revenue) I am still voting based on a personal choice of making a reduction in my personal income.

Furthermore I also give to Amnesty International, Plan International and the NSPCC. I am only giving cash to these and they are still "middlemen" but this can still be described as a personal donation rather than an institutional one.

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Post #34

Post by ST88 »

OccamsRazor wrote:In the the UK I may vote for the Liberal Democrat party as opposed to the Conservative party. I could therefore say that I personally am voting for a higher tax rate (i.e. a reduction in my own paycheck) to pay for welfare for the less able. Even though the money is taken by a middle man (the Inland Revenue) I am still voting based on a personal choice of making a reduction in my personal income.
True, but I wasn't addressing the need for cash for the charitable work done by institutions such as these. I was addressing the difference in philosophies between "Liberals" and "Conservatives". To the religious (and the Conservative), institutionalized charity is not Charity. It is arguable whether or not it materially benefits mankind as a whole, but it doesn't benefit the individual giving the cash in any meaningful way. By not directly working with the misfortunate, you are missing out on a religious experience. Now, if you're not religious, then this isn't a problem. But the liberal tendency to spread the wealth on a semi- double-blind basis, as it were, doesn't address the religious charity question.
OccamsRazor wrote:Furthermore I also give to Amnesty International, Plan International and the NSPCC. I am only giving cash to these and they are still "middlemen" but this can still be described as a personal donation rather than an institutional one.
I beg to differ, but only with your semantics. It may feel like personal charity, and those charities aren't affiliated with government, but unless you're washing the feet of the poor and downtrodden with your own hair, then it's not personal. It's a Liberal ideology applied to private sector charities.

Liberal is a Right-Wing code word for many things, just one of which is impersonal charity -- the so-called hand-out for those who don't have to do very much to prove that they're in need of it. For those who don't trust government as far as they can throw it, they wouldn't trust that a government agency could reliably make that call.
Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings forgotten. -- George Orwell, 1984

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Post #35

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a life led like Jesus' would involve personal, hand-to-hand charity from what you had to give.
Right.

Unfortunately, no one gives to charity on a personal basis, which denotes the need for the government to do it for them.

Non-institutionalized charity would mean a lot of hungry kids.
A "liberal" (U.S. term) government would take from those who have and hand it out to those who have not, i.e. all the charity "work" is done by a middleman and all you give up is cash. How is this a religious ideal, when the religion is being sold as a personal save?
To the religious (and the Conservative), institutionalized charity is not Charity. It is arguable whether or not it materially benefits mankind as a whole, but it doesn't benefit the individual giving the cash in any meaningful way.
Why does the individual giving need to benefit?
Screw religious ideals, and screw personal fulfillment. The only thing that matters is that a needy person recieves what he/she needs to make it through the day, and the tools needed to build a better life for him/herself.

Liberal Christians (an ilk of which I formerly belonged) realize that many people are selfish and/or ignorant to the sufferings of others. Therefore, we force them to give.

Jesus remarked that when giving, "never let your right hand know what your left hand does" (or something along those lines). Jesus did not care if someone lost the chance to get that warm fuzzy feeling from doing good- all he cared about was whether 'poor family A' has enough food to make it through the week.

Jesus was perfect; he did not need to prove his righteousness by taking time out of his busy schedule to heal the sick. But he did it anyway, and in complete secrecy whenever possible.
By not directly working with the misfortunate, you are missing out on a religious experience.
When you are a typical Christian, living in a typical middle class suburban neighborhood, your chances to work with the misfortunate are few and far between.

Few people have the means to carry out a campaign in a poor American neighborhood. Few people have the time to travel to Africa and hand out bag lunches.

That's why there are institutionalized charities and government welfare.
Liberal is a Right-Wing code word for many things, just one of which is impersonal charity -- the so-called hand-out for those who don't have to do very much to prove that they're in need of it. For those who don't trust government as far as they can throw it, they wouldn't trust that a government agency could reliably make that call.
I don't trust independant citizens to make the call at all.

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Post #36

Post by Grumpy »

Nirvana-Eld

While reading all the posts to this thread(something I try to do before posting) I ran across this:
I think that if we are to really get to the bottom of the issue, we need to see how the the dictionary term liberal got twisted into being synonomous with Anne Coutler's (a wolf howls in the background ) use.
I have a friend who bought one of her books(he's a moderate conservative), His review???

"It was the most expensive toilet paper I have ever bought, what's more, it was defective, every page had already been used!"

Liberal, and proud of it!!!

Grumpy 8-)

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Post #37

Post by MagusYanam »

ST88 wrote:Magus, what would you say to the argument that charity should not be institutionalized, but personalized? That is, the only way to experience charity "correctly" is to give of yourself as Jesus did, not to allow the government to cut your paycheck in half (let's say) and distribute it among its own favored charities. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a life led like Jesus' would involve personal, hand-to-hand charity from what you had to give. A "liberal" (U.S. term) government would take from those who have and hand it out to those who have not, i.e. all the charity "work" is done by a middleman and all you give up is cash. How is this a religious ideal, when the religion is being sold as a personal save?
Good question. In a society where high values on kinship and responsibility to take care of one's guests were commonplace (I'm thinking ancient Judea and Saxon England as examples here), the highest and most effective forms of charity would be personal. But in today's world, in which our actions have effects we can't see, we don't always have that luxury. Some people give what they can when they can to the poor people where they live, then go and send money to a charity like the Mennonite Central Committee - where nothing is asked in return, nor recognition from one's peers, I can see no difference between the one and the other.

Also, I am a firm believer in communal, public responsibility for the needy - something exemplified in the early church (in Acts, for example). Now, socialism is far from perfect (as the current economic travails of the EU make plain), but in my opinion it is the modern political theory which comes the closest to what distinguished the early church. To apply it fully to a society like the United States we need to take a few leaves out of the book of a great man named Reinhold Niebuhr and recreate a vital-centre politic along the lines of Niebuhr, FDR and Martin Luther King, Jr.

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