Islam v. Islam

[keithprosser3]

To this outsider the Islamic world seems to be fighting at least two internal wars;
one is between Conservative Islamism and Secularist Modernism the other between Shia and Sunni. Islam is not targetting the west - we are just caught in the crossfire of their internal wars. We probably suffer less than one might expect given the level of our interference in the Islamic world.

The level of violence shows that Islamism has been driven to extremes to hang on against reformism. I don't think that hard-line Islamism has much future. It is simply not suited to the modern world - it cannot survive in a world where the internet and MTV connect people and inform and educate them. We see in Egypt that Muslims today certainly do not want to abandon Islam, but they do not want it in the extreme form represented by the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood.

I wouldn't say the 'moderation' of Islam is imminent, nor even certain in the foreseeable future. I am saying that much of the violence we see is due to the conflict between conservatism and modernism in Islam.

The other conflict between Shia and Sunni I think can be viewed as a proxy war between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia, each striving to dominate the Islamic world. It is hard to see how we can have any influence over that conflict - at least not for the better.

[Dantalion]

[Replying to Dantalion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

maybe Uganda should be a better test case as Christianity is used as a cattle call to violence not drugs etc.

or

should we examine the Southern United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

imho violent people are going to be violent whether they use religion or not as an excuse does not change the fact they will remain violent. Aggression does seem to have some genetic causes as seen in the Russian Silver Fox genetics study

Oh I agree.
However, some ideologies and cultures do lend themselves better to be used as an excuse for violence.
I'm sure you are familiar with Sam Harris' Jainism example.

There will always be violent, hateful people.
The question is, how much leniency do we give to those ideologies that not only make it easy to be used as an excuse for violence, but actually approve of and call out for that violence ?
When believing in X causes you to transform into a hateful person, than clearly something is wrong with X.
Dangerous ideologies can make good people do horrible things.
I don't see why naming an ideology 'religion' should give that ideology immunity from being acted upon.
If you have an ideology that either condones or calls out for the death of non-believers, the stoning of adulterers, the killing of gays, the oppression of women, conversion by force, the spreading of hateful laws and totalitarian regime
and is willing to be followed to the letter by most of it's supporters, than you've got a problem.
And treating that ideology with the same rights and understanding you would give to Judaism or Buddhism is just asinine imho.
Radical Islam should indeed be treated as one would treat the KKK.


I'm not saying religion is the cause of all crime or violence, so I don't really know why you're giving these examples.
I clearly differentiate between crime as a result of poverty, opportunity, lawlessness, hopelessness and a global ideology that actively encourages otherwise good people to do horrible things.
If only the first kind would be a problem, Islam wouldn't be an issue in developed countries.

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to Dantalion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

maybe Uganda should be a better test case as Christianity is used as a cattle call to violence not drugs etc.

or

should we examine the Southern United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

imho violent people are going to be violent whether they use religion or not as an excuse does not change the fact they will remain violent. Aggression does seem to have some genetic causes as seen in the Russian Silver Fox genetics study

References to the southern US are subjective and bigoted. It is common knowledge that many parts of New York City, including its manicured parks, are dangerous places to the uninformed and uninitiated.

Additionally, it is not the exclusive right of southern people to defend their persons and property when assaulted. The letter of the law is quite clear on this, if not the biased and racist attitudes of northern bigots. Yall come down and enjoy our hospitality - and the right to defend yourself if attacked by some barbarian who thinks they have the right to do so. Such rights are natural, not religious in nature.

While we are on the subject of bashing Christianity it might be a good idea for the illiterate to examine the Muslim assaults against Hindu people and religion. Such an examination will require more than thirty seconds of attention span, something that certain people may not be capable of, but it will harvest a wealth of factual information.

In the pages of the Qur'an, mention is made of the 'people of the book', meaning Jews and Christians. Our religious attitudes are shaped by what is written in Holy Scripture and even the Muslims recognize that. Islamic justice is visited upon all who are not Muslim, but tend to offer some semblance of mercy to 'people of the book'. There is no such mercy extended to pagan polytheists such as Hindus who have millions of gods. While Christianity has no doctrine to justify murder of unbelievers, Islam does (read Surah 9) and the most violent judgment is reserved for those who do not believe in the one god.

Northern religious bigots who have forgotten how to educate themselves ought to spend more than thirty seconds doing serious research - not simply that which will reinforce their already skewed subjective opinion. From the thirty first second onward the illumination and breath of fresh air in the brain might suffice to disturb a few of the moldy cobwebs that have formed in the attic of thinking.

Violence is not restricted to the south, unless you accept the attitude that brutality is only justified upon one group of people there who are not allowed to defend themselves.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[DanieltheDragon]

@choirloft

I dont think you understand the parralel i was drawig The KKK is a christian organization that uses religion to promote violence as compared to islamics who use their religion to promote violence.

I grew up in the south i live in the south so maybee you shouldnt jump to conclusions. I am also caucassian so before your cogs start spinning that i am attacking you or your way of life please re-read the arguments being made.

Also i am not bashing christianity i am merely stating that it does nothing to ebe violence and in some cases can be used to promote violence much like......Islam. its not an insult just an observation of the numbers... if you dont like it do something about it.

@dantalion

I am probably expressing my ideas poorly I am great at deconstructing and contructing ideas visually but the written word is not my strong suit. I would not argue that Islam is not inherrently violent it clearly is. I would argue that we already live in a culture with an inherrently violent religion to start with as imho christianity really isnt that much better when you break down the overall numbers so perhaps the higher incidence of incarceration could be more due to the fact that you have two hostile grouos and one group feels backed into a corner and ciuld be reacting violently in response. I very well could be wrong though as i dont have the data available to confirm this..

[DanieltheDragon]

@choirloft

I dont think you understand the parralel i was drawig The KKK is a christian organization that uses religion to promote violence as compared to islamics who use their religion to promote violence.

I grew up in the south i live in the south so maybee you shouldnt jump to conclusions. I am also caucassian so before your cogs start spinning that i am attacking you or your way of life please re-read the arguments being made.

Also i am not bashing christianity i am merely stating that it does nothing to ebe violence and in some cases can be used to promote violence much like......Islam. its not an insult just an observation of the numbers... if you dont like it do something about it.

@dantalion

I am probably expressing my ideas poorly I am great at deconstructing and contructing ideas visually but the written word is not my strong suit. I would not argue that Islam is not inherrently violent it clearly is. I would argue that we already live in a culture with an inherrently violent religion to start with as imho christianity really isnt that much better when you break down the overall numbers so perhaps the higher incidence of incarceration could be more due to the fact that you have two hostile grouos and one group feels backed into a corner and ciuld be reacting violently in response. I very well could be wrong though as i dont have the data available to confirm this..

[Choir Loft]

@choirloft

I dont think you understand the parralel i was drawig The KKK is a christian organization that uses religion to promote violence as compared to islamics who use their religion to promote violence.

I grew up in the south i live in the south so maybee you shouldnt jump to conclusions. I am also caucassian so before your cogs start spinning that i am attacking you or your way of life please re-read the arguments being made.

Also i am not bashing christianity i am merely stating that it does nothing to ebe violence and in some cases can be used to promote violence much like......Islam. its not an insult just an observation of the numbers... if you dont like it do something about it.

@dantalion

I am probably expressing my ideas poorly I am great at deconstructing and contructing ideas visually but the written word is not my strong suit. I would not argue that Islam is not inherrently violent it clearly is. I would argue that we already live in a culture with an inherrently violent religion to start with as imho christianity really isnt that much better when you break down the overall numbers so perhaps the higher incidence of incarceration could be more due to the fact that you have two hostile grouos and one group feels backed into a corner and ciuld be reacting violently in response. I very well could be wrong though as i dont have the data available to confirm this..

You need to review your history, friend.

The KKK was established originally by southern general Nathan Bedford Forrest in order to reestablish white supremacy in the wake of civil war. At the time the Klan was strongly associated with the Republican party (extreme right-wing). There have been several iterations of the Klan since that time. In actual fact, however, the Klan has been more closely associated with national political parties than religious groups.

Yours is merely a badly stated instance of anti-religious demagoguery.

Stating that Christianity is inherently violent is a lie. Closer to the truth is patriotic American policy that espouses world wide terrorism, torture, unjust invasion, financial domination, inhuman and illegal imprisonment and political superiority.

I have neither seen nor read of any American storm trooper wearing a military uniform with a cross stitched across his chest. Yet these criminals are hailed as heroes from one end of the country to the other. Christians, who seek to do nothing more violent than to express their opinion, are routinely accused of the same crimes as those perpetrated upon the innocents of the world by the Federal government of the United States.

The most highly decorated Marine Corps General in US history, Smedley D. Butler understood all too well the real nature of the US Marine Corps and US foreign policy in general when he concluded after his retirement in 1931 that;
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service, and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism."

"The de facto role of the US armed forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those ends, we will do a fair amount of killings."
- Major Ralph Peters

You, dear reader, need to take a very long hard look at the murderous unjust policies of our own government and weigh them justly and fairly against empty accusations of Christian brutality. If there is any truth to what you say it would simply be that most Christians support such fascist policies - a matter for which I pray forgiveness from God every single day. To that end I must accept the idea that Christians in America, by their support of our fascist police state, are indeed guilty of the crimes of the whole.

You'd think that mindless support by Christians of the debauched terrorist government of the United States* would qualify for accolades rather than ridicule. Unfortunately, those who hate the truth and religion have the same attitude. They were and continue to be excellent fodder for the meat grinder of American eternal warfare.

If you want to look for the authors of unjust war, you need look no further than Washington, DC. You'll not find it in the Vatican or the First Baptist Church of the USA.

If you think I'm being overly critical of the United States, you'd better guess again. I'm just getting warmed up. Accuse Christians unjustly and this is what you'll receive in return - the truth that Christians are innocent of your accusations and the truth that America IS GUILTY.

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, THEN HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) By definition, a terrorist government is one that attacks innocents to impose its own policies. This is true of America.

By definition, a terrorist government is one that creates, stockpiles and threatens to use weapons of mass destruction - specifically atomic and nuclear weapons. Only one nation on the planet in all of history has done that with impunity - America.

By definition, a terrorist government is one that enforces its own policies regardless of international law or the concept of humane treatment. The US has secret prisons all over the globe, has tortured people in these prisons without due process of law and has expressed neither remorse nor intention to cease and desist this practice.

By definition a terrorist tyranny spies upon its own citizens and jails them for revealing its crimes to the world. This is America. WAKE UP.

[DanieltheDragon]

I rest my case choirloft demonstrates christianities cattle call to violence cant tell if hes joking or being satirical i thought the soddom and gommorah references were a nice touch btw lets gets some good ole fashion genocide in there with a touch of stoning. /golf clap

[A Troubled Man]

The KKK was established originally by southern general Nathan Bedford Forrest in order to reestablish white supremacy in the wake of civil war. At the time the Klan was strongly associated with the Republican party (extreme right-wing). There have been several iterations of the Klan since that time. In actual fact, however, the Klan has been more closely associated with national political parties than religious groups.

"The Ku Klux Klan is a racist, anti-Semitic movement with a commitment to extreme violence to achieve its goals of racial segregation and white supremacy.

After a period of relative quiet, Ku Klux Klan activity has spiked noticeably upwards in 2006, as Klan groups have attempted to exploit fears in America over gay marriage, perceived “assaults� on Christianity, crime and especially immigration."

http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk ... 4&item=kkk

[East of Eden]

@choirloft

I dont think you understand the parralel i was drawig The KKK is a christian organization that uses religion to promote violence as compared to islamics who use their religion to promote violence.

I grew up in the south i live in the south so maybee you shouldnt jump to conclusions. I am also caucassian so before your cogs start spinning that i am attacking you or your way of life please re-read the arguments being made.

Also i am not bashing christianity i am merely stating that it does nothing to ebe violence and in some cases can be used to promote violence much like......Islam. its not an insult just an observation of the numbers... if you dont like it do something about it.

@dantalion

I am probably expressing my ideas poorly I am great at deconstructing and contructing ideas visually but the written word is not my strong suit. I would not argue that Islam is not inherrently violent it clearly is. I would argue that we already live in a culture with an inherrently violent religion to start with as imho christianity really isnt that much better when you break down the overall numbers so perhaps the higher incidence of incarceration could be more due to the fact that you have two hostile grouos and one group feels backed into a corner and ciuld be reacting violently in response. I very well could be wrong though as i dont have the data available to confirm this..

The difference is that the KKK (who hasn't killed anyone lately - I don't care what people think, I care what they do) acted contrary to Christ's teachings, while the jihadists (currently committing 5 terror attacks every day, on average) act in accordance with the word and deed of the 'prophet'.

The KKK is about as relevant as me bringing up the millions the atheist Stalin killed.

[DanieltheDragon]

East it was drawing a comparison of religous groups or communities that "use" religion to justify or ignite violent acts not as a statement of the way all christians behave.

I would like to poing out deut. 17:2-5 ehich basically commands followers of god to kill non believers soooo its not that unsimmilar to islam.

[East of Eden]

East it was drawing a comparison of religous groups or communities that "use" religion to justify or ignite violent acts not as a statement of the way all christians behave.

I would like to poing out deut. 17:2-5 ehich basically commands followers of god to kill non believers soooo its not that unsimmilar to islam.

So why aren't Christians today following this "command"? If we were bronze-age members of the theocracy of Israel you might have a point. Ancient Israel, as the vehicle for the Messiah, had an interest in keeping itself pure from pagan practices. In fact, once when Jesus was with the disciples and a group rejected them, they asked Jesus to call down fire from heavan to kill them. Jesus refused and rebuked them. Muhammad, had he had the power, would not have done that.