Using logic and reason to oppose abortion...

questioner4 · Post by **questioner4** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:51 pm

Okay, even though I've been questioning my faith for over a year, I am still firmly pro-life - although I believe 'traditional' pro-lifers go about it the wrong way. I believe thast abortion is wrong, because I oppose discrimination on all grounds. I believe it is being discriminatory to deny basic human rights to the smallest humans, simply because they are still dependant on the mother. It really would be nice to hear people oppose abortion on grounds other than the Bible.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are you a 'non-traditional pro-lifer'? If you are Christian and pro-life, can you think of any non-Biblical reasons to oppose abortion?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:02 pm

snappyanswer wrote:From those for whom Logic was important.

Would someone explain how logic applies here? Is the Hippocratic Oath a divine revelation? Is is reasonable to hold modern physicians to a literal interpretation of an oath thousands of years old?

jcrawford · Post by **jcrawford** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:18 pm

McCulloch wrote:
snappyanswer wrote:From those for whom Logic was important.
Would someone explain how logic applies here? Is the Hippocratic Oath a divine revelation?

No.

Is is reasonable to hold modern physicians to a literal interpretation of an oath thousands of years old?

Yes, especially if they have given their word to abide by a reasonable medical oath and tradition which they have sworn to uphold. If they don't, they are proven hypocrites who forego their right to be licensed to practice medicine by, or on, the good citizens of the State of New York or any other state in the Union.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.

Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my art.

Thanks, snappyanswer. This snappy answer will come in handy when arguing my case for men's divine and secular rights to procreate with their wives in New York State marriages.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:39 am

McCulloch wrote:Is is reasonable to hold modern physicians to a literal interpretation of an oath thousands of years old?

jcrawford wrote:Yes, especially if they have given their word to abide by a reasonable medical oath and tradition which they have sworn to uphold. If they don't, they are proven hypocrites who forego their right to be licensed to practice medicine by, or on, the good citizens of the State of New York or any other state in the Union.

Are physicians still required to swear to original form of the hypocratic oath before being licensed to practice?

1John2_26 · Post by **1John2_26** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:51 am

The Hippocratic Oath just showed that for a long time and by civilized people "back in the day" abortion was murder and euthanasia was too.

Most Doctor's "swear" they will not even learn the procedure of abortion for birth control. Of course probably Christian doctors. Huh? "Christian" doctors?

I believe that even the guys at infidels.org would agree that Medical Doctors are educated individuals. Even Richard Dawkins (a shcool employee) could denigrate a "Doctor."

What would Christian "Doctors" think I wonder, about abortion for convenience and birth control?

And check it out? Even in "Canada." Whuuda thunk it?

Christian Medical and Dental Society (CMDS) is a professional organization of like-minded Christian professionals, each holding an individual membership.

CMDS Vision: Who we are.

We are a national organization of Christian physicians, dentists and students who, through God's
grace, seek to honour Him by integrating faith with professional practice.

In a manner first articulated by Dr. Thomas Sydenham, the Father of Modern Medicine (1624 -1689):

It becomes every person who purposes to give himself to the care of others, seriously to consider the four following things: First, that he must one day give an account to the Supreme Judge for all the lives entrusted to his care. Second, that all his skill and knowledge and energy, as they have been given him by God, so they should be exercised for His glory and the good of mankind, and not for mere gain or ambition. Third, and not more beautifully than truly, let him reflect that he has undertaken the care of no mean creature; for, in order that he may estimate the value, the greatness of the human race, the only begotten Son of God became himself a man, and thus ennobled it with His divine dignity, and far more than this, died to redeem it. And fourth, that the doctor being himself a mortal being, should be diligent and tender in relieving his suffering patients, inasmuch as he himself must one day be a like sufferer.

CMDS Mission: What we do.

As an organization CMDS Canada:

upholds an explicitly Christian view of medicine and dentistry;

seeks to understand and minister to the spiritual needs of patients and colleagues;

creates educational materials that address issues of public policy and health;

develops programs that promote a Christian view of medical ethics, address the health
and spiritual needs of the poor and needy, or encourage networking of like-minded colleagues;

ministers to the needs of Christian physicians, dentists and students by supporting local group
activities, planning conferences and locating mentorship, elective or practice opportunities.

jcrawford · Post by **jcrawford** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:41 pm

McCulloch wrote:
McCulloch wrote:Is is reasonable to hold modern physicians to a literal interpretation of an oath thousands of years old?

jcrawford wrote:Yes, especially if they have given their word to abide by a reasonable medical oath and tradition which they have sworn to uphold. If they don't, they are proven hypocrites who forego their right to be licensed to practice medicine by, or on, the good citizens of the State of New York or any other state in the Union.
Are physicians still required to swear to original form of the hypocratic oath before being licensed to practice?

I don't know. They should be. Any that don't are untrustworthy.

What other basis or reason is there for granting or denying a physician a license?

Why do they need a license at all if they graduate med school?

Why do people need a license to marry?

jcrawford · Post by **jcrawford** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:36 pm

1John2_26 wrote:What would Christian "Doctors" think I wonder, about abortion for convenience and birth control?

I doubt if there are any male Christian doctors doing abortions in America or Canada.

Hmmm.

That means that non-Christian doctors are doing all the killing of Christian babies here.

Hmmm.

Why should Christian fathers tolerate non-Christians killing their children without their knowledge and consent?

Hmmm.

Why should Christians even tolerate non-Christian politicians running for office on a pro-choice platform of abortion rights for women when they make no exceptions for Christian marriages?

Hmmm.

Is anyone who advocates or conspires to kill the offspring of married Christian men without either their knowlege or consent, Christian? How could they be? It's a Christian impossibilty to be both a Christian and an advocate of abortions for Christian wives without their Christian husband's knowledge and consent.

Now Christians can tell any non-Christian politician running for office on an abortion rights platform which fails to include paternal notification for married Christian men whose wives have had their fetus aborted and paid for by either the state or the husband's employee medical plan, that they have no civilized right to either campaign for, or hold political office in the USA.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:26 pm

jcrawford wrote:I doubt if there are any male Christian doctors doing abortions in America or Canada.

Probably not.

jcrawford wrote:That means that non-Christian doctors are doing all the killing of Christian babies here.

No. Christian mothers don't ask anyone to kill their babies, do they?

jcrawford wrote:Why should Christian fathers tolerate non-Christians killing their children without their knowledge and consent?

Because they don't own their wives.

jcrawford wrote:Why should Christians even tolerate non-Christian politicians running for office on a pro-choice platform of abortion rights for women when they make no exceptions for Christian marriages?

Vote how you like. There is an exception for Christian marriages. If your religion prohibits abortion, you don't have to get one.

jcrawford wrote:Is anyone who advocates or conspires to kill the offspring of married Christian men without either their knowlege or consent, Christian?

Only wives and other sexual partners of Christian men.

jcrawford wrote:How could they be? It's a Christian impossibilty to be both a Christian and an advocate of abortions for Christian wives without their Christian husband's knowledge and consent.

Tell that to the Christian women.