US Ambassador to Libya reported killed

[Furrowed Brow]

New in the last few minutes is that the US ambassador to Libya has been killed after the embassy was attacked by crowds in response to a US made film depicting the prophet Muhammad.

If this is true then is very sad and condolences too anyone connected to the embassy and the ambassador.

One BBC reporter described the film by Sam Bacile as highly offensive. There are clips available on youtube

Well in the 13 min clip I fail to see anything that is offensive, and certainly not justification to start burning down embassies. However the film is so bad it feels like watching Monty Python or Mel Brooks. American actors with American accents faces smeared with boot polish and false beards and truly dreadful acting and dialogue. It is up there with Plan 9 from Outer Space.

However, to be true there is a tangible despising of Islam from the makers of the film. Though it is bad, so bad it is funny even, I wonder whether there are too many folk on both sides without a sense of humour.

There will now be more riots across the Middle East I fear.

Is feeling offended the right response to having your religious leader or prophet depicted in a way youdo not approve? Is the right response to shrug the shoulders and say “that was pathetic�. Even those of the Islamic faith who would not resort to violence do you feel angered by such a film or can you shrug it off as just stupid. If Islamic film makes made a film of Jesus in a similar fashion would Christians be offended? Would you shrug it off as pathetic?

[dusk]

To me it seems that Muslims in those areas don't really know how to deal with international media. They behave like Christians would have a few centuries ago. Now there is youtube that can potentially carry forth a clip of some aborigene in Australia all over the world to siberia. Some people disagree, some ridicule and one has to stand above it.

The attack on the embassy was probably a planned terrorist attack that used the demonstrations as cover but those wide spread demonstrations aren't justified in that form either. There will always be some ridiculing. That was a movie that flew under the radar for months. Nobody gave a shit and now they explode. Something is wrong there and these Muslims need to reach the 21st century if they want to be part of our globalized community. If not they should shut themselves off in a theocratic state similar to north korea.

To me it also feels that moderate Muslims don't realize that they'd have to do more. They sit back and say, yeah it isn't us. It isn't fair why should we feel responsible.
The world isn't fair, when one politician does wrong they get all thrown together. Every other needs to clearly distance themselves and make a show of fighting corruption. When we Austrians found ourselves with the brown bags of FPÖ in our government, we did go to the street and demonstrate. Not that that could have changed anything but at least it shows that while one quater might vote for them at least half of us is vehemently opposed.
The reputation of all looses and it doesn't matter who a person feels affiliated with but who they are seen as. Egypt looses investments and connection with the rest of the world. Some few realize that but they seem to stand alone and only get some support among rather apolitical passive folk.

I cannot stand this reaction.

"I would never be involved in a film to ever hurt or bring harm to anybody," she told CNN. "This makes me sick to my stomach to think that I was involved in that movie that brought death to somebody else."

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/12/world ... index.html
The movie was stupid no doubt but IT didn't bring death to anybody.

"We urge that this ignorant attempt to provoke the religious feelings of Muslims in the Arabic-speaking world be ignored and that its extremist producers not be given the cheap publicity they so desperately seek," said the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

This is a good guid on how grown ups react. Nobody held that movie into their faces. It was there for months and they sought it out. It is one reason to go nuts if one sprays a huge insulting painting on your holy place of worship but it is quite another if somewhere in the depths of the web there is one document generally ignored because it is so amateurishly stupid and you click on it, watch it and feel insulted.

Maybe they should sell parental protection kids for religious easily offended Muslims so they can safely use the internet without going nuts. All they need to do is ignore one movie file among millions on youtube. It was the same with the caricatures in the Danish newspapers. That can enrage some Dane Moslim but not one half a world around who would never ever read that newspaper.
Jews don't start demonstrating against some neo-Nazi flyer either.

Honestly I try to be tolerant but I find myself loosing patience. You hear soothing words from officials but how about a rally of Libyans mourning a terrible terrorist attack to show the world that the media paints the wrong picture. Surely such a murder would be more horrible with all its implications than some video clip. If not than the words of officials don't mean much and the picture our media paints of these Muslims is accurate, in which case I personally don't see much need to be respectful of such a fools faith.


I find myself somewhat agreeing with the populist take on it. Maybe dropping the whole respect for religion thing might have some healing qualities. Once they are bombarded with ridiculing comics, movies, stories (hopefully in a smarter manner more in the line of a life of Brian) without pause, they might get over it and learn to deal with it.
I am beginning to think a world wide mohammed ridicule offensive would hurt less in the long run than keeping this appeasement nonsense going.

[East of Eden]

To me it seems that Muslims in those areas don't really know how to deal with international media. They behave like Christians would have a few centuries ago. Now there is youtube that can potentially carry forth a clip of some aborigene in Australia all over the world to siberia. Some people disagree, some ridicule and one has to stand above it.

The attack on the embassy was probably a planned terrorist attack that used the demonstrations as cover but those wide spread demonstrations aren't justified in that form either. There will always be some ridiculing. That was a movie that flew under the radar for months. Nobody gave a shit and now they explode. Something is wrong there and these Muslims need to reach the 21st century if they want to be part of our globalized community. If not they should shut themselves off in a theocratic state similar to north korea.

To me it also feels that moderate Muslims don't realize that they'd have to do more. They sit back and say, yeah it isn't us. It isn't fair why should we feel responsible.
The world isn't fair, when one politician does wrong they get all thrown together. Every other needs to clearly distance themselves and make a show of fighting corruption. When we Austrians found ourselves with the brown bags of FPÖ in our government, we did go to the street and demonstrate. Not that that could have changed anything but at least it shows that while one quater might vote for them at least half of us is vehemently opposed.
The reputation of all looses and it doesn't matter who a person feels affiliated with but who they are seen as. Egypt looses investments and connection with the rest of the world. Some few realize that but they seem to stand alone and only get some support among rather apolitical passive folk.

I cannot stand this reaction.

"I would never be involved in a film to ever hurt or bring harm to anybody," she told CNN. "This makes me sick to my stomach to think that I was involved in that movie that brought death to somebody else."

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/12/world ... index.html
The movie was stupid no doubt but IT didn't bring death to anybody.

"We urge that this ignorant attempt to provoke the religious feelings of Muslims in the Arabic-speaking world be ignored and that its extremist producers not be given the cheap publicity they so desperately seek," said the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

This is a good guid on how grown ups react. Nobody held that movie into their faces. It was there for months and they sought it out. It is one reason to go nuts if one sprays a huge insulting painting on your holy place of worship but it is quite another if somewhere in the depths of the web there is one document generally ignored because it is so amateurishly stupid and you click on it, watch it and feel insulted.

Maybe they should sell parental protection kids for religious easily offended Muslims so they can safely use the internet without going nuts. All they need to do is ignore one movie file among millions on youtube. It was the same with the caricatures in the Danish newspapers. That can enrage some Dane Moslim but not one half a world around who would never ever read that newspaper.
Jews don't start demonstrating against some neo-Nazi flyer either.

Honestly I try to be tolerant but I find myself loosing patience. You hear soothing words from officials but how about a rally of Libyans mourning a terrible terrorist attack to show the world that the media paints the wrong picture. Surely such a murder would be more horrible with all its implications than some video clip. If not than the words of officials don't mean much and the picture our media paints of these Muslims is accurate, in which case I personally don't see much need to be respectful of such a fools faith.


I find myself somewhat agreeing with the populist take on it. Maybe dropping the whole respect for religion thing might have some healing qualities. Once they are bombarded with ridiculing comics, movies, stories (hopefully in a smarter manner more in the line of a life of Brian) without pause, they might get over it and learn to deal with it.
I am beginning to think a world wide mohammed ridicule offensive would hurt less in the long run than keeping this appeasement nonsense going.

I like it, how about a worldwide burn a Koran day?

You have to wonder what the endgame is for these crazies, what would make them happy? Like the former communist countries, they have zero tolerance for differing opinions.

[East of Eden]

Here's another interesting development, it is rumored the Marines in Egypt were ordered not to carry live ammunition.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012 ... ro-Embassy

How stupid is that?

[otseng]

Nobody gave a shit and now they explode.

Moderator Comment

Please note that according to the rules, no profanity of any sort is allowed here.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[micatala]

Here's another interesting development, it is rumored the Marines in Egypt were ordered not to carry live ammunition.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012 ... ro-Embassy

How stupid is that?

You should know by now that anything that comes from Breitbart should automatically be considered suspect. Now, perhaps this particular assertion is true, but you need to find another source before you expect reasonable people to take this seriously.



I will partially agree with you on one point in your previous post. Although I can see the the thinking in putting out a statement in attempt to defuse the situation, it is better for a government entity not to criticize protected speech, even if it is stupid or inflammatory. The embassy could have simply pointed out the film was not reflective of the position of the U.S. government without adding the pejorative language.



However, calling the statement "disgraceful" is uncalled for. I would call it imperfect and not likely to be effective, but given the intentions and the situation faced by the embassy, some kind of statement was entirely appropriate.

I again point out that the Bush Administration made at least one similar statement in a somewhat similar situation.

I will also point out that, no, no one's free speech rights were violated or even attacked. An opinion was expressed on the film. While I agree government entity's should be cautious about offering such opinions, such an opinion by itself is not an attack on anyone's rights.

And no, it is entirely incorrect to call this an apology or an expression of sympathy for either protestors or terrorists. That is ludicrous.


Following that "logic", such as it is, a person who criticized Iraq's actions in the Iran-Iraq war was at the same time apologizing to Iran. A person who condemns someone who kills an abortion doctor is thereby apologizing or sympathizing with abortionists or the pro-life movement. A person who criticizes Westboro Baptist for picketing funerals is thereby apologizing or sympathizing with even the most extreme gay rights promoters (e.g. NAMBLA). Again, that is simply ludicrous.



I would agree in strong actions being taken against identified perpetrators.

I would also agree that IF either of the government's involved are determined to have acted negligently, or even more so if they were somehow complicit in these protests or attacks, actions against the governments would be appropriate, possibly including withholding of funds. However, I think that a great deal of caution should be exercised before jumping to conclusions and acting before the facts are known.

We may not like it, but as with Pakistan, it is in our interest to maintain good relations with countries in the area in order to enlist their help or at least acquiesence in our anti-terrorism activities. If we have not choice but to act against a government and thereby alienate them, that is one thing. We should not do so unnecessarily, however.

[East of Eden]

Here's another interesting development, it is rumored the Marines in Egypt were ordered not to carry live ammunition.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012 ... ro-Embassy

How stupid is that?

You should know by now that anything that comes from Breitbart should automatically be considered suspect. Now, perhaps this particular assertion is true, but you need to find another source before you expect reasonable people to take this seriously.

Ad hominem. If you know of a perfect source that has never made a mistake, let me know. Certainly not Paul Krugman who you have cited in the past.

I will partially agree with you on one point in your previous post. Although I can see the the thinking in putting out a statement in attempt to defuse the situation, it is better for a government entity not to criticize protected speech, even if it is stupid or inflammatory. The embassy could have simply pointed out the film was not reflective of the position of the U.S. government without adding the pejorative language.

OK, we agree. To me, the Islamofascists are pressuring the US Government (which had nothing to do with the film) to clamp down on such free speech, which is quite alarming. Rather than making such a discraceful statement, we should have said in the US, we have freedom of speech and religion, and now lets get on to nailing the criminals who attacked.

However, calling the statement "disgraceful" is uncalled for. I would call it imperfect and not likely to be effective, but given the intentions and the situation faced by the embassy, some kind of statement was entirely appropriate.

I again point out that the Bush Administration made at least one similar statement in a somewhat similar situation.

And I pointed out I disagreed with that also.

I will also point out that, no, no one's free speech rights were violated or even attacked. An opinion was expressed on the film. While I agree government entity's should be cautious about offering such opinions, such an opinion by itself is not an attack on anyone's rights.

I didn't say the film maker's rights were restricted, I said they were attacked. It is none of the US governments business what film he wants to make.

And no, it is entirely incorrect to call this an apology or an expression of sympathy for either protestors or terrorists. That is ludicrous.

It is exactly that, an expression of sympathy with the criminal attacker's alleged motives (unless they were celebrating 9/11), when in fact the film maker had zero culpability to this incident. There are lots of Christians who act and speak out on their beliefs that Islam is a false religion, and that Muslims are in need of the salvation that only Jesus Christ offers. By this reasoning, they are 'guilty' too.

I would agree in strong actions being taken against identified perpetrators.

I would also agree that IF either of the government's involved are determined to have acted negligently, or even more so if they were somehow complicit in these protests or attacks, actions against the governments would be appropriate, possibly including withholding of funds. However, I think that a great deal of caution should be exercised before jumping to conclusions and acting before the facts are known.

We may not like it, but as with Pakistan, it is in our interest to maintain good relations with countries in the area in order to enlist their help or at least acquiesence in our anti-terrorism activities. If we have not choice but to act against a government and thereby alienate them, that is one thing. We should not do so unnecessarily, however.

Pakistan is another joke ally, saying the right words to bilk gullible politicians out of billions of aid, while clearly protecting Bin Laden, and persecuting the one who tipped us off.

[dusk]

I like it, how about a worldwide burn a Koran day?

You have to wonder what the endgame is for these crazies, what would make them happy? Like the former communist countries, they have zero tolerance for differing opinions.

I would consider a burn the Koran day a very dumb version of pure insult and not ridicule. My I idea would be to count on the educational effect of some smart ridicule and getting them used to the the multicultural world that they intend to be a part of by using the internet.

Attributing some endgame seems unreasonable. These are mostly young people without jobs, in resignation without anything useful to do. What they could use is some lesson on reality in a globalized world. The only endgame is escaping day to day misery and venting on some common enemy.
If they had a decent education system that actually reaches all people and a prospect for the future there would be no more islamist nutjobs than we have nationalist idiots or christian fundamentalists like the Westboro Baptists.


I don't want to be in Mursi's shoes. I wonder how much he thinks of his fellow Muslims in times like this.
In any case politically one must tread with care. Egypt get quite a bit of development aid as long as they get money they are more likely to behave. This aide could be a hundred times that and would still be way cheaper than a war in the region. Saudi Arabia is buying weapons like there is no tomorrow for a while now. They don't do that for no reason. Israel and Iran are constantly at the tip and neither is ruled by very careful politicians. Given the potential of all the unemployed youth, bad economy, islamist propaganda in this whole region it is a dangerous bomb. As long as we rely on oil it is a bomb that could hurt our economies a lot. I guess if things got out of hand every bigger country would be in there with troops, possibly even China for a change. Smart diplomacy is way cheaper than that mess.

[East of Eden]

I like it, how about a worldwide burn a Koran day?

You have to wonder what the endgame is for these crazies, what would make them happy? Like the former communist countries, they have zero tolerance for differing opinions.

I would consider a burn the Koran day a very dumb version of pure insult and not ridicule. My I idea would be to count on the educational effect of some smart ridicule and getting them used to the the multicultural world that they intend to be a part of by using the internet.

Attributing some endgame seems unreasonable. These are mostly young people without jobs, in resignation without anything useful to do.

Not really, Bin Laden and the other 9/11 criminals were wealthy and educated.

What they could use is some lesson on reality in a globalized world. The only endgame is escaping day to day misery and venting on some common enemy.
If they had a decent education system that actually reaches all people and a prospect for the future there would be no more islamist nutjobs

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, their 'education' teaches them America is Satan and Jews are apes and pigs.

than we have nationalist idiots or christian fundamentalists like the Westboro Baptists.

Ridiculous comparison, Westboro Baptists haven't hurt a fly.

I don't want to be in Mursi's shoes. I wonder how much he thinks of his fellow Muslims in times like this.

What makes you think he disagrees with what happened? Don't you think he could have stopped it? He is a Muslim Brotherhood guy.

[Nilloc James]

Not really, Bin Laden and the other 9/11 criminals were wealthy and educated.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen, their 'education' teaches them America is Satan and Jews are apes and pigs.

Although I agree with you in general on most of the points I think the things said here are slightly off the mark.

I think that there are educated terrorists shouldn't be surprising; educated people tend to be politically active etc. when combined with ideology that condones violence over offense you get educated terrorists. It is statistically true that educated Muslims are more likely to be terrorists than non educated as shown by economists Steven Levitt. I do not think that nessisarily leads to the conclusion that all schools they attend have an "america is evil" agenda, some even were western educated if I recall correctly.

Ridiculous comparison, Westboro Baptists haven't hurt a fly.

The claim was with proper education the worst fundamentalists would be akin to the Westboro Baptists. Agree or disagree with the assessment, but nobody tried to say the Westboro Baptists are equal to the terrorists in discussion (who, I'll be the first to say, are far worse).

What makes you think he disagrees with what happened? Don't you think he could have stopped it? He is a Muslim Brotherhood guy.

It is worth mentioning that Islam is as fractured as Christianity especially in politics. This question is akin to asking the United Church of Canada if it can change the pope's perspective on something.

_____

No ill will to you east of eden, I agree the western world should do a better job of standing up to those who think they can tell us not to use our rights and threaten those who speak freely.

[East of Eden]

The latest disgraceful curb on our free speech rights; LA has pulled the permit for the film that was allegedly the cause of these riots. Of course it wasn't, only the pretext. If not that, it would have been something else.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... eased.html