Capitalism the best way?

His Name Is John · Post by **His Name Is John** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:25 am

I don't mind capatalism. I don't love it in the same way certain Christian's such as Dinesh D'souza do. I think it works well enough for the time being.

But really do I think that just because I am living a comfotable lifestyle? I am not tragically poor, I am not the victime of weighted trading laws. I am a middle class citizan of Great Brittian.

But honestly it isn't a perfect system. It promotes greed, and as seen by stock market crash, certain types of greed are not infact sustainable.

But what are the options? Communism seems good on paper, yet in reality it was a disaster. What is the point in a theory that cannot work practically?

So what can we do?

Are we stuck with capitalism for ever?

Should communism be tried again?

I know that G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc put forward a third way of Distributiosm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism), but will that be another theory that looks good on paper but cannot be properly implimented?

Please discuss and debate.

Haven · Post by **Haven** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:59 pm

I'm a staunch anti-capitalist. I feel capitalism is an inherently exploitative system that essentially amounts to freedom for a very small group (the "capitalist class"; the wealthy) while the rest are subjugated to what essentially amounts to indentured servitude, serfdom. Under capitalism, the working and middle class are essentially forced to work -- on pain of poverty and destitution -- to increase the power, money, and influence of the ruling class. We work to our own destruction, but work (for corporations) is needed for us to survive. It is a disgusting catch-22. That is indentured servitude.

Imprisoned by crushing debt and fear of poverty (if not actual poverty), in a capitalist system, the vast majority of human beings are consigned to serve the interests of the capitalist class until their dying day; while the capitalist class seeks to extract more and more surplus wealth from the poor, working, and middle classes.

Under a capitalist system, the capitalist class has all the power (capital/business is mobile) while labor has little to none (labor cannot move). Greed is a virtue under capitalism, and the greed of the ruling class drives the desperation of the working and middle classes, as the capitalist class seeks to maximize profits through unethical practices such as layoffs, wage decreases, and austerity programs.

This old (Asian) Indian saying sums up capitalism: "he who has the gold, has the power, and he who has the power, has the gold."

No, communism (I assume by "communism" you mean Stalinist totalitarianism) is not the answer, because under communism, the state takes the place of the capitalist class as the oppressor. Instead, I support libertarian socialism or "communalism," in which the state's power is kept to a minimum (or ideally, eliminated) and political power, ownership of property and the means of production, and value of labor are vested in egalitarian communities made up of free individual people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalis ... hilosophy)

Capitalism is not the only option, nor is it the best option (it is, by far, the worst). Sadly, however, it's not going away any time soon. Only a global revolution will eradicate capitalism; the best we can do under our current system is reform and socialize it, backing it with labor power and a strong welfare state. Look at Scandinavia as an example.

Smash capitalism!

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:41 pm

Haven wrote: Instead, I support libertarian socialism or "communalism," in which the state's power is kept to a minimum (or ideally, eliminated) and political power, ownership of property and the means of production, and value of labor are vested in egalitarian communities made up of free individual people.

The problem with this is that it is unsustainable. A "community" can not own something. You can have tenets in common, where ownership is shared among identifiable individuals or you can have individuals appointed to care for the common good. However, without clear definition of ownership, ones rights and responsi bilities are also ill defined. That is the problem we are having in the USA with regard to the word "person" in the 13th amendment. If anyone can just walk right up and feed at the public trough there is no incentive to get anything done.

Abraxas · Post by **Abraxas** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:35 pm

Haven wrote: Capitalism is not the only option, nor is it the best option (it is, by far, the worst). Sadly, however, it's not going away any time soon. Only a global revolution will eradicate capitalism; the best we can do under our current system is reform and socialize it, backing it with labor power and a strong welfare state. Look at Scandinavia as an example.

By far the worst? I can think of quite a few worse, such as Feudalism, however I agree capitalism certainly is a flawed system.

I do, however, seem to be more optimistic than yourself about how much longer it will be with us as I do think an end is within sight, that end being the rise of the machines. Currently, computers are already taking over a lot of jobs being done by not just Americans, but the world as a whole. More and more factories are moving to greater and greater levels of automation, relying increasingly on fewer and fewer operators to control more and more machines. Likewise, the trend has been that computers double in power every 18 months, according to Moore's law, in their price bracket. If we can assume that trend continues, computers will be, in 15 years time 1024 times as powerful as they are today, for their price, over a million in 30.

We are already starting to see computers take over the jobs of groups like lawyers, who more than half of now cannot find work in law after graduating from law school due to software making creating, filing, and managing legal work so much more efficient, and investment advisors and brokers. How much longer until the financial and service sectors of the economy come to be dominated by machinery that doesn't demand a paycheck and that can do the job with greater speed and accuracy than can a human? Even human speech, a long time bulwark preventing machines from doing all human endeavors is beginning to crumble. Machines like Watson are proficient enough at speech recognition to respond more quickly and accurately to difficult and complexly worded inquiries than the two greatest champions of Jeopardy. How long before Watson's successors take over functions like call centers?

Frankly, this bleed off is unavoidable as switching to machines provides am immediate benefit to shareholders in the way of savings and those that make the switch up front will gain market share over those who don't. We've already seen it in some degree, this recession, where rather than rehire workers once the economy began recovering, at an unprecedented level companies simply bought more machines and forced the workload onto the surviving workforce. Given the trend, I expect to see unemployment continue to rise to ever greater heights. How well will democratic capitalism function in the face of 20, 30, even 50 percent or more unemployment on a permanent basis? I do not believe it can.

Our tools are becoming too good to rely on a system primarily driven by jobs and careers as we know them, and something will have to change drastically sooner than most people think.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:20 pm

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

Abraxas · Post by **Abraxas** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:27 pm

bluethread wrote:"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

Capitalism is not, and should not be confused with Democracy. The two are distinct and quite possibly incompatible.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:30 pm

Abraxas wrote:
bluethread wrote:"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill
Capitalism is not, and should not be confused with Democracy. The two are distinct and quite possibly incompatible.

Sorry, I didn't get my interpretation in before posting the first time.

I would have to say the same with regard to capitalism and economic systems. Of course Churchill was not talking about pure democracy and most capitalists are not talking about pure capitalism either. He was speaking of a democratic republic and I am refering to open market capitalism.

JohnPaul · Post by **JohnPaul** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:15 pm

bluethread wrote:"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

It has been said that "In a democracy, the people get what they deserve." What a terrifying thought!

His Name Is John · Post by **His Name Is John** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:21 am

There have been some very interesting replies here. Most people though seem to agree that capitalism is a flawed system. I just can't personally see it going away in the near future. The money is behind it (as it always will be).

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:14 pm

Everything is flawed. What is a workable alternative. With regard to where 'the money" is, it is controlled by the government. Money is merely a means of exchange. In capitalism, property rights are vested with the individual. In other economic systems, those rights are shifted to a governing authority. This consolidates both the ownership and means of exchange into one entity. Which is better multiple individuals who compete for the right to determine the best allocation of assets, arbitrated by the government, or the governement determining the best allocation of resources, arbitrated by the government.