Ministry In Israel: Dealing with the Orthodox

[chameleonz85]

So I deal a lot with the political situation in Israel and how it applies to Jewish evangelism. In this video http://www.youtube.com/v/WlHEPJAL_J8 Missionary Dan Sered talks about the ministry climate and how young Israelis are searching for truth. What do you think about Jewish ministry in Israel?

[Lux]

A jew who regards Jesus as the messiah and the New Testament as the word of god makes as much sense to me as a christian who denies Jesus as the messiah.

My honest opinion is that they simply want to convert jews to Christianity, but figured that just saying "Hey, leave Judaism and become a christian" is a tad too straight-forward, and that by using a name that implies they'd still be jewish ("Jews for Jesus") they reduce the shock factor.

[cnorman18]

A jew who regards Jesus as the messiah and the New Testament as the word of god makes as much sense to me as a christian who denies Jesus as the messiah.

My honest opinion is that they simply want to convert jews to Christianity, but figured that just saying "Hey, leave Judaism and become a christian" is a tad too straight-forward, and that by using a name that implies they'd still be jewish ("Jews for Jesus") they reduce the shock factor.

In all fairness, I don't think it's quite that cynical and calculated in most cases (though I suspect that in the case of "Jews for Jesus" specifically, it might be).

I think it's mostly a matter of simple ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance, because all most conservative Christians know of Judaism is from the New Testament, which concerns Judaism as it existed in the first century and, thanks to the distortions and -- um -- misstatements of Paul, isn't even accurate in THAT context; and arrogance, in assuming that the Christian way to read the Hebrew Bible is the One, Only, and Absolutely Correct way to read them.

A conviction that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to Hell is a huge factor, too; many of these people really, sincerely believe they're trying to save Jews from the flames, and it's ironic that so many Jews have been quite literally consigned to the flames in THIS life out of that conviction. The list of Jewish martyrs burned, stoned, crushed, flayed, etc. by Christians, for being Jews, is a very, very long one.

The Christian church as a whole has never acknowledged, let alone repented, of the long and horrifying history of its treatment of my people. I've heard one excuse or rationalization after another, and no doubt I'm about to hear some more; but as one Christian writer, Franklin Littell, put it a few decades back, "Any Christian who can look at the Holocaust and the subsequent rebirth of Israel three years later, without the Crucifixion and Resurrection coming to mind, isn't paying attention."

God is not through with the Jews, and Christians don't have the Inside Track on the will and judgment of God. A bit of history and humility might be in order for Christians before presuming to lecture us on what God thinks and expects.

[Lux]

In all fairness, I don't think it's quite that cynical and calculated in most cases (though I suspect that in the case of "Jews for Jesus" specifically, it might be).

I think it's mostly a matter of simple ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance, because all most conservative Christians know of Judaism is from the New Testament, which concerns Judaism as it existed in the first century and, thanks to the distortions and -- um -- misstatements of Paul, isn't even accurate in THAT context; and arrogance, in assuming that the Christian way to read the Hebrew Bible is the One, Only, and Absolutely Correct way to read them.

Honestly, I can hardly conceive that level of ignorance. I'm the first one to admit that I know little about Judaism, but it seems clear as water from my point of view that a jew accepting Jesus as his saviour = a christian.

A conviction that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to Hell is a huge factor, too; many of these people really, sincerely believe they're trying to save Jews from the flames, and it's ironic that so many Jews have been quite literally consigned to the flames in THIS life out of that conviction. The list of Jewish martyrs burned, stoned, crushed, flayed, etc. by Christians, for being Jews, is a very, very long one.

I have no doubt that a significant number of the missionaries have honest purposes. The people behind these organizations are the ones whose intentions I question.

Conversion attempts don't generally bother me. In this case they do because I can't help but think that the name "Jews for Jesus" is purposefully misleading.

The Christian church as a whole has never acknowledged, let alone repented, of the long and horrifying history of its treatment of my people. I've heard one excuse or rationalization after another, and no doubt I'm about to hear some more; but as one Christian writer, Franklin Littell, put it a few decades back, "Any Christian who can look at the Holocaust and the subsequent rebirth of Israel three years later, without the Crucifixion and Resurrection coming to mind, isn't paying attention."

Nice quote.
I've personally met only a handful of christians that rationalized or excused their church's treatment of others in the past, but I've definitely never seen an apology come from the christian high commanders.

[cnorman18]

In all fairness, I don't think it's quite that cynical and calculated in most cases (though I suspect that in the case of "Jews for Jesus" specifically, it might be).

I think it's mostly a matter of simple ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance, because all most conservative Christians know of Judaism is from the New Testament, which concerns Judaism as it existed in the first century and, thanks to the distortions and -- um -- misstatements of Paul, isn't even accurate in THAT context; and arrogance, in assuming that the Christian way to read the Hebrew Bible is the One, Only, and Absolutely Correct way to read them.

Honestly, I can hardly conceive that level of ignorance. I'm the first one to admit that I know little about Judaism, but it seems clear as water from my point of view that a jew accepting Jesus as his saviour = a christian.

That IS pretty basic.

A conviction that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to Hell is a huge factor, too; many of these people really, sincerely believe they're trying to save Jews from the flames, and it's ironic that so many Jews have been quite literally consigned to the flames in THIS life out of that conviction. The list of Jewish martyrs burned, stoned, crushed, flayed, etc. by Christians, for being Jews, is a very, very long one.

I have no doubt that a significant number of the missionaries have honest purposes. The people behind these organizations are the ones whose intentions I question.

Conversion attempts don't generally bother me. In this case they do because I can't help but think that the name "Jews for Jesus" is purposefully misleading.

Not only the name, but the avowed goals of the organization, its tactics, and its claims about the nature and teachings of the Jewish religion.

The Christian church as a whole has never acknowledged, let alone repented, of the long and horrifying history of its treatment of my people. I've heard one excuse or rationalization after another, and no doubt I'm about to hear some more; but as one Christian writer, Franklin Littell, put it a few decades back, "Any Christian who can look at the Holocaust and the subsequent rebirth of Israel three years later, without the Crucifixion and Resurrection coming to mind, isn't paying attention."

Nice quote.
I've personally met only a handful of christians that rationalized or excused their church's treatment of others in the past, but I've definitely never seen an apology come from the christian high commanders.

Some years ago, a Pope -- John Paul II, as I recall, it was that recent -- generously allowed that Jews aren't all automatically consigned to Hell. Gosh, thanks. The Pentecostals and most fundamentalists haven't even gotten THAT memo yet.

Pope John XXIII, whose given name was Joseph Roncalli, once greeted the first delegation of Jews from Israel with the touching words, "I am your brother Joseph." That moves me, for some reason. Brothers don't have to agree on everything, or even necessarily like each other all that much; but we ought to at least acknowledge each other as being from the same family and not try to erase each other's identity.

[East of Eden]

Allow me to insert the Bible into the question of whether Jewish evangelism is Biblical:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

[TheLibertarian]

Allow me to insert the Bible into the question of whether Jewish evangelism is Biblical:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Except that what Paul wrote matters not a whit to any Jew.

[cnorman18]

Allow me to insert the Bible into the question of whether Jewish evangelism is Biblical:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Except that what Paul wrote matters not a whit to any Jew.

Our often rancorous debates notwithstanding, I don't think that's quite fair or on point. EoE is quoting Paul, I think, to show why evangelism in general, including the evangelism of Jews, is justified (and truly, even required and expected) of Christians -- and though it may surprise all, I'm absolutely OK with that. The Great Commission IS an essential doctrine of Christianity.

The place where I get exercised is when that becomes a justification or excuse for redefining Judaism. It's perfectly okay to evangelize Jews, but NOT to tell them that it's demanded by, required by, or a part of the Jewish religion, or that the Old Covenant is no longer in effect for Jews. THAT is over the line; Christians may define Christianity, but may not redefine or, in effect, claim the abolition or obsolescence of Judaism.

Jews ought to be evangelized as if we were Hindus or Muslims, without reference to any faith but the Christian faith, and without denigrating our own. These religions are separate, and BOTH should be respected.

[Slopeshoulder]

As good as he was, did Jaco Pastorius ever go to Ron Carter and suggets that he give up his upright bass and get a Fender? Did Keith Richards ever insist that Rev. Gary Davis plug in? That would be crazy talk. And claiming that some imaginary godbook says so is even crazier.
I rest my case.

And it's no joke that the OP's logic is circular and imperialistic and (inadvertently)anti-semetic. It is the logic of linguistic cultural genocide. I'd expect stalinist or moaist "courts" to have this kind of logic, and I'd like to say Christians don't do that, but they do. Right here, right now (I think that tune had a synth bass BTW).
I can take no Christianity seriousloy that would convert Jews; instead, send them thank you cards and regret cards and ask to borrow a few books.

And if the bass analogies are workin', I can keep 'em coming! ...No?

[East of Eden]

Allow me to insert the Bible into the question of whether Jewish evangelism is Biblical:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Except that what Paul wrote matters not a whit to any Jew.

What Paul, a Jew, wrote, matters a great deal to those Jews who are Christians. Does he matter to most Jews, probably not.

[Goat]

Allow me to insert the Bible into the question of whether Jewish evangelism is Biblical:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Except that what Paul wrote matters not a whit to any Jew.

What Paul, a Jew, wrote, matters a great deal to those Jews who are Christians. Does he matter to most Jews, probably not.

As was explained to you.. If they are Chrisitans, they are not Jews.

And, as was pointed on in several threads, there are reasons to believe that Paul was not a Jew, no matter what he said.