Who or what is satan?

[Skyangel]

This subject came up on another thread.

Most Christians perceive the concept of Satan/devil in the bible as a fallen angel.
The bible refers to Satan in many different ways including as the "god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4 )

2 Cor 4:4 is obviously referring to the devil as a god.
Are all the fallen angels also gods?

The bible calls sons of God, gods. ( Psalm 82:6, John 10:34)
Satan was one of the sons of God according to Job 1:6 , Job 2:1,


According to the bible, Sons of God are gods, ( please see above scripture references) Satan is one of the sons of God who also has sons according the scriptures which call the devil, the father of liars according to John 8:44.
By implication if the devil is the father of anything then he has children who are his "sons" and "daughters" or whatever you wish to call his offspring.

Naz gave me a scale and asked me a question.

Not bad, it’s a start. Here is a scale.God – Son of God – Angels – People – Earth –Fallen Angels – Satan. See who is in the middle. Care to add anything or break it down any further than that?

Edit: took a reference out beside a scale name, since i didn't add them to others and plan to keep the scale simple.

First of all Naz, did you make this scale up yourself? If not, where did you get it ?

Why did you add "Earth" to a list of Spiritual beings?

Where do you place "sons of God" on your scale?
Where do you place "sons of the devil" on your scale?
Where is the devil referred to as an angel in scripture other than 2Cor 11:14 which refers to him as an "angel of light" but implies from verse 13 that it is a deception?

How is the Hebrew word 'elohiym " translated as "angels" in Psalm 8:5 any different to the Hebrew word ''elohiym" translated as "gods" in Psalm 82:6 ?

If children (sons) of God are referred to as gods and also referred to as angels, does that make angels who are "elohiym", also gods who are "elohiym"?

Do you believe the devil is a son of God or not according to Job 1:6 , Job 2:1 ?

Who or what is the devil/satan?
*A man?
*A Spirit?
*An angel?
*A god?
*Other?

Please explain the answer you give and tell us why you chose that answer.

[therolanpen]

You appear to be confused between the Bible and the Quran. The God of the Bible is not called Allah. Allah is the God of the Quran. The God of the Bible is YHWH. Although apparently Allah simply means God anyway and I cannot read or understand Arabic so I do not know if the Torah call God Allah in Arabic or if the name is still YHWH in Arabic as well.

La ilaha ila Allah.
There is no ilah but Allah.
There is no God but Allah.

These are the first and last words every Muslim hears upon entering and leaving this world. It is the Islamic declaration of faith. There is a strong argument that if there is no “ilah� (God) but Allah, then Allah is the proper name of God, and in fact means “ the Greatest NAME.� In Islam, when Muslims speak or write of Allah, they follow the mention of his name immediately with the phrase “Praise be his name� (PBHN) . It is understood that ALLAH is the NAME of God, just as Muhammed, also followed by “praise be his name� is the name of Muhammed.

In the process of translating words from one language to another a process called transcription occurs, in which words are converted into their phonetic equivalents. Thus, when we translate the name of Mohammad into English, we find the spellings Mohammad, Mohammed, Muhammed, Muhammad, and Mahomet. All are equally valid representations of the name of Muhammed. They are not different names, with different meanings, because they are each spelled differently. They represent the same name because they sound the same when pronounced in English.

Likewise, in the Bible, which is translated from many different languages and many different dialects, the name of Allah is represented phonetically by several different spellings in Hebrew scriptures.

The Chaldean, or Babylonian spelling of Allah, in the Bible, is phonetically rendered “Elahh�, and means “God�, singular. It is used extensively in the books of Ezra and Daniel including :

Ezra 4:24 Then ceased the work of the house of Elahh which is at Jerusalem…..

Ezra 5:1, 2Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of ALLAH of Israel, even unto them.

Ezra 5:5But the eye of ALLAH was upon the elders of the Jews, that they could not cause them to cease…

Ezra 5: 11,12,13And thus they returned us answer saying, We are the servants of ALLAH of heaven, and earth, and build the house that was builded these many years ago which a great king of Israel builded and set up. But after our fathers provoked ALLAH unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar…

Ezra 7: 25And thou Ezra, after the wisdom of ALLAH, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of the thy God, and teach them that know them not…..and whosoever will not do the law of ALLAH, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death or banishment or imprisonment…..

Daniel 2:18, 19, 20, 23Then Daniel blessed ALLAH. Daniel answered and said “Blessed be the name� of ALLAH forever and ever, for wisdom and might are his… I thank thee, and praise thee, o ALLAH, of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, ….

Daniel 2:44And in the days of these kings shall ALLAH set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever.

Daniel 3:17If it be so, ALLAH, whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thy hand, o King, but if not, be it know unto thee, that we will not serve they gods…..

In Scofield’s Reference Edition of the Bible, circa 1945, Scofield, a Doctor of Divinity (D.O.D.), and eight other D.O.D.’s, identified the god of the Old Testament (Torah) by name, in their very first footnote:
Genesis 1:1 reads “In the beginning God…….

Scofield’s footnote says that the word rendered “God�, in Genesis 1:1, is in fact, Elohim, sometimes shortened to El or Elahh, The ENGLISH form of “God�, and the phonetic equivalent of ALLAH. He notes that it is “ The first of three primary names of Deity, a uni-plural noun formed from EL, meaning strength, or the strong one, and Alah, meaning to swear, to bind oneself with a COVENANT or oath.�

Daniel incorporates both the Hebrew and the Babylonian phonetic equivalents of ALLAH in his writings:
Daniel 9:11Yea all Israel have transgressed thy torah, even by departing that they might not obey thy voice, therefore ALAH is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the torah of Moses the servant of Elahh-im, because we have sinned against him.

It is clear from Daniels writings, that he believed that ALLAH and ELAHH-im are one and the same DEITY. Dr. Scofield and his eight co-translators agree.
Moses used the same phonetic equivalent of Allah, as Daniel, here:

Deuteronomy 29:19And it come to pass when he heareth the words of Alah that he bless himself in his heart, saying I shall have peace, though I walk in the imaginations of mine heart…..

The same phonetic rendering also appears in Nehemiah:

Nehemiah 10: 29They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and came into Alah and entered into an oath, to walk in ELAHH-him’s torah, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord and his judgments and his statutes.

Ezekiel also reveals that Alah is the God of the covenant.

Ezekiel 16:59For thus saith the Lord God, I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised Alah in breaking the covenant.
Ezekiel 17:18Seeing he despised ALAH by breaking the covenant when lo he had given his hand and hath done all these things he shall not escape.

Another phonetic rendering of Allah, is Olah, which Moses used here:

Exodus 10:25And Moses said (to Pharoah), Thou must give us also sacrifices to Olah, that we may sacrifice unto the Lord our God.

Exodus 24:5And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered to Olah, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.

Exodus 29:25And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for Olah, for a sweet savour before the Lord: it is an offering made by fire unto the lord.

Exodus 38:1And he (Moses) made an altar of Olah of shittim wood, five cubits was the length thereof, and five cubits the breadth thereof,….

Exodus 35:16And the incense altar, and his staves, and the anointing oil, and the sweet incense, and the hanging for the door at the entering in of the tabernacle, the altar of Olah with his brazen grate, his staves, and all his vessels, the laver and his foot…

Exodus 40:6And thou shalt set the altar of Olah before the door of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation.

Leviticus 4:7And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the lord, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of Olah, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

A-llah and O-lah, the A-lpha and the O-mega.

Alah, Olah, elahh, ala, A-LAW, the giver of A Law.

Al-Batin, the hidden one, of whom Jesus said, there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

The God of the Pharsi’s, whom Jesus called the devil.

The God of the Pharsi’s of whom Jesus said, your father is not my father. If you were of God, you would love me, because I came from God.

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[Slopeshoulder]

Yup, it's correct that Allah, Yahweh, Elohim, and Jehovah are different names for the same god.

Traditions may differ (for example the book of Genesis features the somewhat differing emphaszes of the so-called Ehohist and Yahwist writers), but its basically different names for the same thing.

[Skyangel]

Interesting.
I have compared the scriptures in post 11 with the KJV of the bible and have placed the KJV of the word in blue beside the Islamic version of the word. All my additions are in blue

Ezra 4:24 Then ceased the work of the house of Elahh (God) which is at Jerusalem…..


Ezra 5:1, 2Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of ALLAH ( the God) of Israel, even unto them.


The rest also say God in KJV except for these where it is translated as "a curse"....


Daniel incorporates both the Hebrew and the Babylonian phonetic equivalents of ALLAH in his writings:
Daniel 9:11Yea all Israel have transgressed thy torah,(law) even by departing that they might not obey thy voice, therefore ALAH ( the curse ) is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the torah (law) of Moses the servant of Elahh-im, (God) because we have sinned against him.


It is clear from Daniels writings, that he believed that ALLAH and ELAHH-im are one and the same DEITY. Dr. Scofield and his eight co-translators agree.
Moses used the same phonetic equivalent of Allah, as Daniel, here:

Deuteronomy 29:19And it come to pass when he heareth the words of Alah ( this curse) that he bless himself in his heart, saying I shall have peace, though I walk in the imaginations of mine heart…..

The same phonetic rendering also appears in Nehemiah:

Nehemiah 10: 29They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and came into Alah (entered into a curse) and entered into an oath, to walk in ELAHH-him’s torah, (God's law) which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord and his judgments and his statutes.


Ezekiel also reveals that Alah is the God of the covenant.

Ezekiel 16:59For thus saith the Lord God, I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised Alah (the oath) in breaking the covenant.

Ezekiel 17:18Seeing he despised ALAH (the oath) by breaking the covenant when lo he had given his hand and hath done all these things he shall not escape.

Another phonetic rendering of Allah, is Olah, which Moses used here:

Exodus 10:25And Moses said (to Pharoah), Thou must give us also sacrifices to Olah, (sacrifices and burnt offerings), that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.

Exodus 24:5And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered to Olah, (offered burnt offerings) and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.


Exodus 29:25And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for Olah,(a burnt offering,) for a sweet savour before the Lord: it is an offering made by fire unto the lord.

Exodus 38:1And he (Moses) made an altar of Olah (burnt offering) of shittim wood, five cubits was the length thereof, and five cubits the breadth thereof,….

The Hebrew words are
Olah.. which means, 1.whole burnt offering. 2.ascent, stairway, steps
Alah... which means curse, oath, execration, This word comes from a root word meaning to swear, curse. ( strongs H422)
The word "alah" is also a verb in Hebrew which means; to go up, ascend, climb, etc Please see http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 5927&t=KJV



Scofield’s footnote says that the word rendered “God�, in Genesis 1:1, is in fact, Elohim, sometimes shortened to El or Elahh, The ENGLISH form of “God�, and the phonetic equivalent of ALLAH. He notes that it is “ The first of three primary names of Deity, a uni-plural noun formed from EL, meaning strength, or the strong one, and Alah, meaning to swear, to bind oneself with a COVENANT or oath.�

I find it interesting that strength is found in swearing an oath. It is also interesting that this oath BINDS people into a bondage which is a CURSE.
Allah is a curse, a bondage, an abhorrence into which a person binds themselves with an oath and in doing so they end up becoming the "burnt offering" or "sacrifice" to Allah/God.

Obviously some people enjoy worshipping this curse.

Christ is the curse.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:


Jesus and Christ are just other names for Allah/God.

Why do people bother worshipping a curse? Those who worship a curse become cursed by the curse.

The Jesus on the "tree" represents sin. Why do people worship sin and keep following it and doing what it tempts them to do ?

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


The whole concept in the bible is to get rid of the curse (alah ) so we are free from the curse. People are supposed to grow up and take responsibility for themselves instead of relying on an invisible "Father" to solve all their problems and take all responsibility for them as if they were babies who could not fend for themselves and need to be told when to stand up, when to sit down, when to bow down, when to pray, when to eat, when not to eat, what to eat, what not to eat, when to work and when to rest etc, etc .
Will the world ever grow up, mature and learn to think for ourselves?

The voice from the throne says "DO NOT WORSHIP ME"
Rev 19:10, Rev 22:9

[therolanpen]

Are you saying that Allah is the devil?
If Allah is the god of the Pharisees and they are children of damnation etc. Who do you say is the God and Father of Jesus?
Do you perceive Jesus to also be a messenger of the father who is a liar and a murderer from the beginning or do you think Jesus had a different Father, a different God?

If sons of God are mere men then their Father must also be a mere man if men are created in the image of their Father since all things reproduce after their own kind according to nature as well as according to biblical principles. ( See Genesis 1 "after his kind")
Good reproduces good.
Evil reproduces evil.

Do we therefore have two Gods in the beginning, a good one and an evil one, or just one who is both good and evil?

Elohiym is a conundrum that is still hotly debated among scholars. The etymology is unknown.

It is, as you have stated, a plural. The conundrum arises because the people whose god elohiym is, are monotheistic. They believe that there is only one god, and not more than one. Yet the name of their god is plural, suggesting more than one. How very odd.

Elahh-im, plural, created man in his own image. Male and female, plural, created he HIM. The image of God, provided by this parable, is dualistic in nature, male and female. Indeed, Elahh-im has said I am good and evil, life and death, the blessing and the curse, light and darkness. He is a god who is dualistic in nature.

The doctrine of the One God states that God is ONE. The sons of God have gravely misunderstood this doctrine to mean that there is only one God. As it is written, the Bible is replete with stories of other gods, and men's dealings with them. Even Moses acknowledged the existance of other gods when he wrote "have no other gods before me", a moot point if no other gods existed.

One of the things that Jesus did was restore the doctrine of ONE-ness that had been lost to the sons of God. Jesus taught us that his father, god, is ONE, specifically meaning that he is ONE NATURE. He loves and blesses his friends, and he loves and blesses his enemies, because he is love, and he is blessing, and he has nothing else to give but these. He is all light, and in him is no darkness at all. He is not dualistic. He does not have two natures. He is ONE nature. He does not kill and make alive. He only gives life. He does not blind men, and open the eyes of the blind. He only restores sight.

It is entirely possible that the plurality of elohim speaks directly to his dualistic nature. Man is dualistic. In order to evolve, and become god's, we must become one nature, as god is, and as Jesus was. We must give up doctrines of dualism, and dualistic gods.

Jesus was the anti-Allah. He called all men out of the house of Allah, and away from dualism, into oness. We are all born into dualism, with a dualistic nature. To be born again, we must come out of dualism, and enter into oneness.

The term elohiym is not only applied to god in the bible, which is another mystery.

It is applied to false gods, angels, and men. It is not a proper name of god. I have thought that it is a shortened form for "bene elohim", the sons of god, just as the phrase "shall not make haste" in the bible, is used as a shortened version of the phrase "shall not make haste to shed blood". If elohim is an abbreviated form of bene elohim, then it explains many of the odd uses of the word, for the sons of god function as both angels and devils, metaphorically speaking. In such a case, we could also use it as a possessive noun, for the bene elohim, sons of god, are elohim, gods sons, or god's.

Elohim, who is dualistic, created man in his own image, dualistic. As it is written, Dualistic man, in the garden of Eden, was blind, naked, without knowledge, and without eternal life. MAN was not of God, who is ONE nature. The real sons of god, who are ONE with the father, have eyes that see. They are not blind. They have knowledge of the difference between good and evil and they have eternal life.

compare these three versions of the creation parable:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, allah-im created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was a wilderness, vanity, confusion (Babylon), a desolated wasteland, and ruined. And darkness, misery, destruction, wickedness, sorrow and ignorance was upon the countenance of the 'kingdom of heaven'. And the anger of allah hovered over the mayhim.

Jeremiah 4:22-28 They are wise to do evil, but to do good they HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE. I beheld the earth and lo it was without form and void and they had no light. And lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities were broken down, at the presence of lord, and by his fierce anger.

Genesis 6 And the bene elohim saw the daughters of men and took them wives of all they chose. And they bare children who were mighty warriors, men of renown. And the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil continually. And allah said, My anger will no longer wait on, and plead with man. I will number his days. In 120 years, I will destroy man, who I have created......

In the beginning the sons of allah (elohim) created the heavens/god, in their own image, good and evil, dualistic, angry, punitive, vengeful. And belief in this god, and mans effort to become more like this god, destroyed the earth. And through belief in their teachings, and their evil imaginations of god, they created the earth/men also in their own image, and the earth was destroyed, and wasted, by their evil imaginations, because they were without knowledge, and believed that evil was goodness, and that allah was god. And all men believed their doctrine.

But Jesus brought us light, and knowledge.

[McCulloch]

They said God was on high and he controlled the world and therefore we must pray against Satan. Well, if God controls the world, he controls Satan. For me, religion was full of misstatements and reaches of logic that I just couldn't agree with.

To me, the creator of Star Trek and no stranger to paradoxes, puts it rather well. If Satan is God's servant and God loves us, then there is nothing to fear from Satan. If Satan is God's enemy and God is all powerful, likewise there should be nothing to fear. Either way, Satan's continued evil influence on the world lacks a coherent explanation from the Christian Holy Texts.

[Skyangel]

Elohiym is a conundrum that is still hotly debated among scholars. The etymology is unknown.

It is, as you have stated, a plural. The conundrum arises because the people whose god elohiym is, are monotheistic. They believe that there is only one god, and not more than one. Yet the name of their god is plural, suggesting more than one. How very odd.

I don't see it as odd at all. I see it as one family ( the human race) made up of many families. It is still all one family.
1 Cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

Elahh-im, plural, created man in his own image. Male and female, plural, created he HIM. The image of God, provided by this parable, is dualistic in nature, male and female. Indeed, Elahh-im has said I am good and evil, life and death, the blessing and the curse, light and darkness. He is a god who is dualistic in nature.

Exactly, I agree with that since it is easy to compare with mankinds own dualistic nature and it makes sense to me that if we are created in the image of God that Gods nature is also dualistic. Otherwise mankinds dualistic nature would not be in the image of God at all.

The doctrine of the One God states that God is ONE. The sons of God have gravely misunderstood this doctrine to mean that there is only one God. As it is written, the Bible is replete with stories of other gods, and men's dealings with them. Even Moses acknowledged the existance of other gods when he wrote "have no other gods before me", a moot point if no other gods existed.

Gods children are called gods.

One of the things that Jesus did was restore the doctrine of ONE-ness that had been lost to the sons of God. Jesus taught us that his father, god, is ONE, specifically meaning that he is ONE NATURE. He loves and blesses his friends, and he loves and blesses his enemies, because he is love, and he is blessing, and he has nothing else to give but these. He is all light, and in him is no darkness at all. He is not dualistic. He does not have two natures. He is ONE nature. He does not kill and make alive. He only gives life. He does not blind men, and open the eyes of the blind. He only restores sight.

That is not what the bible says.
God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7 )
God kills and wounds, ( Deut 32:39 )
God makes the blind, the deaf, the dumb. (Ex 4:11)
God deludes people and causes them to believe lies. (2 Thess 2:11).
Jesus makes people blind. (john 9:39)

The one nature of God is still dualistic. Dualistic does not mean two natures but two sides to one nature. God has as much a dualistic nature as mankind does. However, He knows how to work all things together for good and mankind obviously has not figured that out yet. To overcome evil with good is what God is trying to teach mankind and mankind will not listen. They prefer to hold on to some concept that evil does not come from God at all but it does.
God is the advocate as well as the adversary in the spiritual realm. He is the adversary to those who hate Him and the advocate to those who love Him.

[Skyangel]

They said God was on high and he controlled the world and therefore we must pray against Satan. Well, if God controls the world, he controls Satan. For me, religion was full of misstatements and reaches of logic that I just couldn't agree with.

To me, the creator of Star Trek and no stranger to paradoxes, puts it rather well. If Satan is God's servant and God loves us, then there is nothing to fear from Satan. If Satan is God's enemy and God is all powerful, likewise there should be nothing to fear. Either way, Satan's continued evil influence on the world lacks a coherent explanation from the Christian Holy Texts.

The problem is mankind tends to imagine satan/the devil as a separate being to God which they also imagine is an individual being rather than understanding the word satan simply means adversary and understanding that God is the adversary/enemy to those who hate Him.
Mankind can also be an "angel" of a "devil", an adversary or advocate according to their choice and obviously have their reasons for it. We are created in the image of God. God can also be an adversary and advocate at the same time.