The meaning of the separation of church and state.

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McCulloch
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The meaning of the separation of church and state.

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

East of Eden wrote: We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.
Question for debate: Does the separation of church and state imply a separation of faith and state? What role has faith in the operation of the state?

While you may frame your responses in the context of the constitution of the USA, its first amendment and the interpretations provided by the US Supreme Court, we should also discuss this question in a more generic sense of the western liberal secular democratic tradition.
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Post #2

Post by perfessor »

"Faith" is a personal issue. "Church" is a political entity. So EoE is correct. We can ( and should) keep church out of government and vice versa. Our representatives in government will make decisions as they see fit; if these decisions are informed by their faith, that's an inevitable part of the process.

That being said, it's disingenuous at best for a representative to say "We should enact 'X' because it's in the Bible/Koran/Torah/Kama Sutra, and my faith commands it." Make a rational case for any such law, or forget about it.
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Post #3

Post by micatala »

perfessor wrote:"Faith" is a personal issue. "Church" is a political entity. So EoE is correct. We can ( and should) keep church out of government and vice versa. Our representatives in government will make decisions as they see fit; if these decisions are informed by their faith, that's an inevitable part of the process.

That being said, it's disingenuous at best for a representative to say "We should enact 'X' because it's in the Bible/Koran/Torah/Kama Sutra, and my faith commands it." Make a rational case for any such law, or forget about it.

I agree. The key issue is whether the policy or law under consideration can be justified without depending on religious arguments. A religious motivation for promoting a policy is fine. But if the only rationale for a policy is religious, then I think that is problematical.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Post #4

Post by perfessor »

micatala wrote: A religious motivation for promoting a policy is fine. But if the only rationale for a policy is religious, then I think that is problematical.
Yes, this is known as the "Lemon Test", from the Supreme Court decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman:
Wikipedia wrote:The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
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Post #5

Post by Question Everything »

Wikipedia wrote:The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
So why isn't the National Day of Prayer deemed unconstitutional?
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Post #6

Post by McCulloch »

Question Everything wrote: So why isn't the National Day of Prayer deemed unconstitutional?
Has it been challenged in court? The courts only rule on cases which are brought to them.
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Post #7

Post by perfessor »

Hmmm - I'm not a lawyer, but the amendment begins "Congress shall make no law...". The NDoP is just a proclamation, not a law. So there's probably no standing to bring a suit.

You gotta pick your battles; this is one I wouldn't bother with.
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Post #8

Post by Question Everything »

McCulloch wrote:
Question Everything wrote: So why isn't the National Day of Prayer deemed unconstitutional?
Has it been challenged in court? The courts only rule on cases which are brought to them.
Oh, yes it has!
Freedom From Religion Foundation wrote:
The Foundation, a national state/church watchdog, filed a federal lawsuit on Oct. 3, 2008, broadly challenging the federal law designating a National Day of Prayer and requiring a National Day of Prayer Proclamation by the President. In addition to suing Pres. George W. Bush (amended to Pres. Barack Obama), the lawsuit names his press secretary, Dana Peri ...

.
http://www.ffrf.org/legal/challenges/ff ... of-prayer/
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Post #9

Post by McCulloch »

Question Everything wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
Question Everything wrote: So why isn't the National Day of Prayer deemed unconstitutional?
Has it been challenged in court? The courts only rule on cases which are brought to them.
Oh, yes it has!
Freedom From Religion Foundation wrote:
The Foundation, a national state/church watchdog, filed a federal lawsuit on Oct. 3, 2008, broadly challenging the federal law designating a National Day of Prayer and requiring a National Day of Prayer Proclamation by the President. In addition to suing Pres. George W. Bush (amended to Pres. Barack Obama), the lawsuit names his press secretary, Dana Peri ...

.
http://www.ffrf.org/legal/challenges/ff ... of-prayer/
Initial victory for the forces of secularism and separation. There will be appeals, of course.
THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WISCONSIN wrote:...
the Court has held on many occasions that the government violates the establishment clause when it engages in conduct that a reasonable observer would view as an endorsement of a particular religious belief or practice, including prayer. On the other hand, the Court has held that some forms of “ceremonial deism,� such as legislative prayer, do not violate the establishment clause.
...
It goes beyond mere “acknowledgment� of religion because its sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function in this context. In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience. “When the government associates one set of religious beliefs with the state and identifies
nonadherents as outsiders, it encroaches upon the individual's decision about whether and how to worship.� McCreary County, 545 U.S. at 883 (O’Connor, J., concurring). Accordingly, I conclude that § 119 violates the establishment clause.
...
[R]ecognizing the importance of prayer to many people does not mean that the government may enact a statute in support of it, any more than the government may encourage citizens to fast during the month of Ramadan, attend a synagogue, purify themselves in a sweat lodge or practice rune magic. In fact, it is because the nature of prayer is so personal and can have such a powerful effect on a community that the government may not use its authority to try to influence an individual’s decision whether and when to pray.
...
If the executive branch were free to disregard the First Amendment, it would mean that decades of Supreme Court decisions are invalid.
...
To many, the idea of government endorsement of religion is not only acceptable, but also a desirable way to promote public morality and strengthen community bonds. ... To those people, the problem is that government does not promote religion enough. ... To those whose beliefs comport with the message sent by the government, it is difficult to understand why anyone would object to the message.
However, religious expression by the government that is inspirational and comforting to a believer may seem exclusionary or even threatening to someone who does not share those beliefs. This is not simply a matter of being “too sensitive� or wanting to suppress the religious expression of others.
...
Justice O’Connor has framed the problem concisely: “government cannot endorse the religious practices and beliefs of some citizens without sending a clear message to nonadherents that they are outsiders or less than full members of the political community.�
...
It is important to clarify what this decision does not prohibit. Of course, “[n]o law
prevents a [citizen] who is so inclined from praying� at any time. Wallace, 472 U.S. at 83-84 (O’Connor, J., concurring in the judgment). And religious groups remain free to “organize a privately sponsored [prayer event] if they desire the company of likeminded� citizens. Lee, 505 U.S. at 629 (Souter, J., concurring). The President too remains free to discuss his own views on prayer. Van Orden, 545 U.S. at 723 (Stevens, J., dissenting). The only issue decided in this case is that the federal government may not endorse prayer in a statute as it has in § 119.

[center]ORDER[/center]
IT IS ORDERED that
  1. The motion for summary judgment filed by plaintiffs Freedom from Religion Foundation, Inc., Anne Nicol Gaylor, Annie Laurie Gaylor, Dan Barker, Paul Gaylor, Phyllis Rose and Jill Dean, dkt. #103, is GRANTED with respect to plaintiffs’ claim that 36 U.S.C. § 119 violates the establishment clause; the motion for summary judgment filed by defendants Barack Obama and Robert Gibbs, dkt.#82, is DENIED with respect to that claim.
  2. It is DECLARED that 36 U.S.C. § 119 violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
  3. 3. Defendants are ENJOINED from enforcing 36 U.S.C. § 119. The injunction shall take effect at the conclusion of any appeals filed by defendants or the expiration of defendants’ deadline for filing an appeal, whichever is later.
Entered this 15th day of April, 2010.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #10

Post by Question Everything »

McCulloch wrote: Initial victory for the forces of secularism and separation. There will be appeals, of course.
Yes, and in addition to appealing, Obama has decided to totally ignore the Supreme Court's ruling. Apparently, he considers himself to be above the law.
"Oh, you can''t get through seminary and come out believing in God!"

current pastor who is a closet atheist
quoted by Daniel Dennett.

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