Forgiving God

[Skyangel]

God admits to being a deceiver, yet at the same time warns people not to be deceived.
Is an open deceiver a liar and does He need to be forgiven for deceiving people?

If a man is deceived, can he know that he is deceived if no one ever explains the deception to him ?
If a person figures out for himself that some things simply don't "add up" do they lose trust in the person who deceived them?

The whole story of the bible is based on the deception of mankind. The concept is that mankind were and still are deceived by the serpent till such a time as they "wake up" or are set free from the deception by acknowledging the Truth ( Jesus).

If mankind never considers the possibility that he may be deceived then he will never consider the Truth which will set him free from the deception.
Only Truth can make people free.
There are plenty of warnings about taking care to not be deceived. That implies the possibility of deception at all times.

The bible is very clear that God deceives people and warns us to not be deceived at the same time.

Deut 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them

Jer 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.


Jer 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Exek 14;9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

2 Tit 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


If you understand the principles of God apply to God himself then God is basically calling Himself evil when he admits to deceiving and deluding people.

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God allowed people to judge Him and crucify Him for being a deceiver, even though the deception is very open and obove board and is not really a deception any more than a magicians illusion is a deception. However, it does tend to fool and deceive the ignorant who prefer to believe the magician can do magic or miracles rather than understand that life is all an illusion and humans can do all that God can do too.

Some people will never forgive God for appearing harsh and mean and cruel and others do forgive Him. If we forgive we will be forgiven. If we don't, we won't be forgiven either. Yet God forgives all, so how can anyone not be forgiven? They are not forgiven unless they forgive themselves for their own foolishness. We reap what we sow. If we sow unforgiveness, that is also what we reap.

Guilt is inside mankind and only the man himself can get rid of the guilt by understanding the Truth of what causes it and overcome the cause so it has no more effect on his life.

People who never forgive God are never in Christ and never in Truth. They prefer to hold on to their anger and hate of God as they keep rejecting Him and claim He does not exist because He does not "fix" their problems and become their slave who they can command to do as they want Him to do. They want God to treat them with respect as they disrespect God because he tricked, deceived, deluded, them and they won't forgive Him for it.

Does God need to be forgiven or do people need to forgive themselves for their own foolishness and stupidity in allowing themselves to be deceived?

Is the word of God the classic example of the liar paradox?

Also see http://www.logicalparadoxes.info/liar/

The same paradox applies to the word of God. God admits He is being deceptive and causing delusions. Is God therefore being deceptive and causing delusions or is God simply the greatest magician and illusionist in the universe who keeps people wondering whether He exists in reality or not?

[ahigherway]

God admits to being a deceiver, yet at the same time warns people not to be deceived.
Is an open deceiver a liar and does He need to be forgiven for deceiving people?

If a man is deceived, can he know that he is deceived if no one ever explains the deception to him ?
If a person figures out for himself that some things simply don't "add up" do they lose trust in the person who deceived them?

The whole story of the bible is based on the deception of mankind. The concept is that mankind were and still are deceived by the serpent till such a time as they "wake up" or are set free from the deception by acknowledging the Truth ( Jesus).

If mankind never considers the possibility that he may be deceived then he will never consider the Truth which will set him free from the deception.
Only Truth can make people free.
There are plenty of warnings about taking care to not be deceived. That implies the possibility of deception at all times.

The bible is very clear that God deceives people and warns us to not be deceived at the same time.

Deut 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them

Jer 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.


Jer 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Exek 14;9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

2 Tit 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


If you understand the principles of God apply to God himself then God is basically calling Himself evil when he admits to deceiving and deluding people.

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God allowed people to judge Him and crucify Him for being a deceiver, even though the deception is very open and obove board and is not really a deception any more than a magicians illusion is a deception. However, it does tend to fool and deceive the ignorant who prefer to believe the magician can do magic or miracles rather than understand that life is all an illusion and humans can do all that God can do too.

Some people will never forgive God for appearing harsh and mean and cruel and others do forgive Him. If we forgive we will be forgiven. If we don't, we won't be forgiven either. Yet God forgives all, so how can anyone not be forgiven? They are not forgiven unless they forgive themselves for their own foolishness. We reap what we sow. If we sow unforgiveness, that is also what we reap.

Guilt is inside mankind and only the man himself can get rid of the guilt by understanding the Truth of what causes it and overcome the cause so it has no more effect on his life.

People who never forgive God are never in Christ and never in Truth. They prefer to hold on to their anger and hate of God as they keep rejecting Him and claim He does not exist because He does not "fix" their problems and become their slave who they can command to do as they want Him to do. They want God to treat them with respect as they disrespect God because he tricked, deceived, deluded, them and they won't forgive Him for it.

Does God need to be forgiven or do people need to forgive themselves for their own foolishness and stupidity in allowing themselves to be deceived?

Is the word of God the classic example of the liar paradox?

Also see http://www.logicalparadoxes.info/liar/

The same paradox applies to the word of God. God admits He is being deceptive and causing delusions. Is God therefore being deceptive and causing delusions or is God simply the greatest magician and illusionist in the universe who keeps people wondering whether He exists in reality or not?

Hi Skyangel!
If we are deceived, how can we know it? I think it is perhaps impossible to know, since we are deceived into thinking something else as being truth, which is not truth.
It seems clear that escape from deception requires an outside influence..
Or not?

Blessings,
brian

[McCulloch]

How does one avoid being deceived?
Test all things. Do not trust your own feelings and intuition, but rely on the facts in evidence, cold hard logic and reason. Insist that no idea is sacred or inviolate. Become a skeptic.

[ahigherway]

How does one avoid being deceived?
Test all things. Do not trust your own feelings and intuition, but rely on the facts in evidence, cold hard logic and reason. Insist that no idea is sacred or inviolate. Become a skeptic.

Hi McCulloch!
But how sure are we that being a skeptic is not a form of deception?

It would seem that debating God creates paradox..

Blessings,
brian

[ahigherway]

Some people will never forgive God for appearing harsh and mean and cruel and others do forgive Him. If we forgive we will be forgiven. If we don't, we won't be forgiven either. Yet God forgives all, so how can anyone not be forgiven? They are not forgiven unless they forgive themselves for their own foolishness. We reap what we sow. If we sow unforgiveness, that is also what we reap.

Guilt is inside mankind and only the man himself can get rid of the guilt by understanding the Truth of what causes it and overcome the cause so it has no more effect on his life.

People who never forgive God are never in Christ and never in Truth. They prefer to hold on to their anger and hate of God as they keep rejecting Him and claim He does not exist because He does not "fix" their problems and become their slave who they can command to do as they want Him to do. They want God to treat them with respect as they disrespect God because he tricked, deceived, deluded, them and they won't forgive Him for it.

Does God need to be forgiven or do people need to forgive themselves for their own foolishness and stupidity in allowing themselves to be deceived?

Forgiving God... I've only read of one other person who mentions such an idea, you can read it here, in ch. 22:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm

Gerrard Winstanley mentioned in one of his writings, that man naturally sees God as angry and vengeful, until God reveals Himself in some way to him. Then he is able to see that God is love.

Blessings,
brian

[Skyangel]

Hi Skyangel!
If we are deceived, how can we know it? I think it is perhaps impossible to know, since we are deceived into thinking something else as being truth, which is not truth.
It seems clear that escape from deception requires an outside influence..
Or not?

Blessings,
brian

Hi Brian,
People can know they are being deceived in various ways. However, it all depends on how strong the deception is in the first place and whether we have been taught to recognise it as a deception or as something else.
It is never impossible to know something we really want to know.

Sometimes an outside influence is needed to teach us what to look for so we are not deceived. Sometimes our own inner intuition tells us something is not quite "adding up" even if we are unsure what that might be. Revelation can come from inside ourselves or from outside influence or sometimes from both at once.

All people have an inner "tuition" which we call intuition or some call it discernment or some call it gut feelings, etc. Regardless of the name we give to it, it is an inner "witness" as it were which tells us something makes sense or does not make sense as the case may be.

Deception comes in the form of joking, hypocrisy, false fronts, acting, tricking, conning, manipulating, political correctness, superficiality etc.

Sometimes people know others are joking or putting on "airs and graces" and sometimes they wonder, so we end up with comments like " Are you serious? " or " No kidding? " or other such cliches which basically indicate that the person saying them has their doubts about the truth of what is being conveyed and think they are being lied to, tricked, deceived in some way.

So to answer your question "If we are deceived, how can we know it?" I think we can know it by listening to our intuition or own heart and when we have doubts we need to question those doubts till there are no longer any doubts. Truth sets people free from doubt because Truth tends to verify itself in many ways if you look at it objectively and determine to not be offended by what you see.

[Skyangel]

How does one avoid being deceived?
Test all things. Do not trust your own feelings and intuition, but rely on the facts in evidence, cold hard logic and reason. Insist that no idea is sacred or inviolate. Become a skeptic.

Testing all things is wise. Not trusting ones own feelings or intuition can be good or bad since your feelings can be telling you one thing and your intuition can be telling you the opposite. This can cause inner conflict.
Not all things can be solved or resolved by evidence or cold hard logic and reason since sometimes the only evidence available is the evidence of your own logic and reason and no other tangible evidence is available. If your own logic and reason are leading you astray, where do you turn to find the Truth?

Does a skeptic question his own skepticism or believe his own skepticism? Is a skeptic an unbeliever in all things including himself or a believer in himself as he questions everything and everyone else except himself?
Even skeptics believe their own logic and reason.
How many skeptics ask themselves if their own logic and reason is leading them astray?

Self deception is the worst kind of deception since people talk themselves into believing a lie and calling it truth and therefore they are the only ones who can talk themselves out of believing a lie and stop calling it truth but recognise it as the lie it is.

Truth cannot lie.
Lies cannot tell the truth.
If The Truth stands in front of you and says, "I am the Truth". Is it telling lies or telling the truth?
If a lie stands in front of you and say "I am the deception". Is it telling lies or the truth?
If the Truth stands in front of you and says I am the deception, is it the Truth or a deception?
If a lie stands in front of you and says " I am the Truth " is it telling the truth or lying?

If either one stands in front of you and says "I am that I am". Is that the Truth or a lie?
Can both the Truth and a Lie claim the same thing and both be telling the Truth if a lie cannot tell the truth?

[Skyangel]

How does one avoid being deceived?
Test all things. Do not trust your own feelings and intuition, but rely on the facts in evidence, cold hard logic and reason. Insist that no idea is sacred or inviolate. Become a skeptic.

Hi McCulloch!
But how sure are we that being a skeptic is not a form of deception?

It would seem that debating God creates paradox..

Blessings,
brian

I agree that debating God creates paradox. That is because God is a paradox.
God is invisible and at the same time is visible to those with eyes to see.
God is the beginning and end at the same time.
God is all opposites at the same time. God is all and in all. That makes God his own paradox who appears to contradict Himself.

God is the Truth which can appear to be a lie as well as a deception which can appear to be the truth.

[ahigherway]

How does one avoid being deceived?
Test all things. Do not trust your own feelings and intuition, but rely on the facts in evidence, cold hard logic and reason. Insist that no idea is sacred or inviolate. Become a skeptic.

Hi McCulloch!
But how sure are we that being a skeptic is not a form of deception?

It would seem that debating God creates paradox..

Blessings,
brian

I agree that debating God creates paradox. That is because God is a paradox.
God is invisible and at the same time is visible to those with eyes to see.
God is the beginning and end at the same time.
God is all opposites at the same time. God is all and in all. That makes God his own paradox who appears to contradict Himself.

God is the Truth which can appear to be a lie as well as a deception which can appear to be the truth.

Nice post, Skyangel!
Yes, God even tells people one thing (ie OT commands to kill) and then tells us that the "True" way is Love! It can be really confusing to people, and I can see why people tend to not get too involved. It's almost dangerous!

Personally, I have heard a lot of points of view regarding God. These last few years have taught me much, especially on the Internet; and I have to say that I don't have just "one" way of looking at God, I see about 4 or 5 that I really like!

So somedays I find myself focused on one aspect of God. Other days, I might feel inclined to reflect on others. My brain can't handle it all at once!
Today, for example, I am thinking about the "allness" of God, as you touched on in your post. He is all, through all, and in all. When times get rough, it's nice to know that even the roughness is of God (whether directly or indirectly, I cannot say), and that brings peace to me.

Blessings!
brian

[Skyangel]

Nice post, Skyangel!
Yes, God even tells people one thing (ie OT commands to kill) and then tells us that the "True" way is Love! It can be really confusing to people, and I can see why people tend to not get too involved. It's almost dangerous!

Is it a case of "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" ?

God creates foolishness, warns people to not be foolish and then chastises people for being foolish.
God creates deception, warns people to not be deceived, and then chastises people for being deceived.
God creates evil and death, warns people to not do evil so they will not die but says you can't live without dying or you must die in order to live.

Eze 33:11.......... [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:...........

Psalm 115:16 Precious in the sight of the LORD [is] the death of his saints.

God does not want the wicked to die but wants them to become saints ( turn from their wickedness or die to their wickedness so they can live and He can take pleasure in the death of the saints which is precious to Him.

It tends to boggle the mind a bit.

God creates confusion, warns people to not be confused, then chastises and condemns people for being confused.

Personally, I have heard a lot of points of view regarding God. These last few years have taught me much, especially on the Internet; and I have to say that I don't have just "one" way of looking at God, I see about 4 or 5 that I really like!

Would you like to describe those ways you like?
When you have finished describing what you like, how about describing what you don't like?

So somedays I find myself focused on one aspect of God. Other days, I might feel inclined to reflect on others. My brain can't handle it all at once!
Today, for example, I am thinking about the "allness" of God, as you touched on in your post. He is all, through all, and in all. When times get rough, it's nice to know that even the roughness is of God (whether directly or indirectly, I cannot say), and that brings peace to me.

Blessings!
brian

The mind of Christ can handle it all at once because it is mature enough to see the whole picture at the same time and has no need to "feel the different parts of the elephant" like a blind man trying to describe an elephant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

If God is in all and through all, does that include the devil and all evil in your "all" or not?
If not, How is God in all if something is exempt from all?

If you lost all you had including all your own health and your loved ones and was left with only a nagging wife who told you to curse God and die, would you take her advice?
Think of Job.