The Catholic Church Is The One True Church?

[WinePusher]

Obviously, many contemporary christian denominations rose from the reformation, thus it cannot be disputed that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

[faith]

Obviously, many contemporary christian denominations rose from the reformation, thus it cannot be disputed that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.

It can and is disputed that it is the true Church.
It was hi-jacked about 4 centuries after Christ.
Peter never went to Rome till his death.

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

#
Never been the true Church.

2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

Found in Christ for all not just a denomination.

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

Spirit according the bible.

4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

Spirit and Truth of Jesus Christ.

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

It is made to keep people under thumb not give them true freedom by faith.

Faith.xx

[Slopeshoulder]

Obviously, many contemporary christian denominations rose from the reformation, thus it cannot be disputed that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

Good questions.

1. No. And that is no longer official Catholic teaching.

2. Yes and no. Cathlic teaching agrees that there is salvation available to non-Catholics. Indeed, if I understand correctly, it can even be found outside Christianity (see Rahner, Griffiths, and others).
HOWEVER, if "church" is meant to mean not membership but rather community (which it is: body of christ/people of god), then Christianity (church), Buddhism (sangha), Islam (ummah), Mormonism (family) and native American spirituality (the people) all agree that the answer is "no." This is a team sport. I'm 99% Judaism and Hinduism also agree, as religion/identity/community are so intertwined, but I'm not sure enough to quote them, to my shame.

3. Hell NO! Luther got that one WAY wrong (responding to corruption at the time in the only way he knew how, and with a temperment that needed certainty). Tradition, commentary, reason, experience, conscience, sholarship, formal teachings, community, and the heart all have a role to play in spiritual discernment. Catholicism and others teach that.

4. Luther got this wrong too. But the topic has grown tiresome, an endless chicken and egg. Faith, as leap and transformation (at some level) comes first, while works (lived life) follows (except that works can ignite faith). All traditions agree on this. Compassion and love are the outcome of metanoia/enlightenment etc. Luther's obsession with justification interpreted as substitutionary atonement was counter-productive. Eastern Orthodoxy for instance has no friggin' clue what he's talking about. They think more in terms of light and dark, not salvation and sin.

5. MANY objections having to do with why they don't allow married lesbian clergy to distribute condoms to teenagers, as they should in my opinion. But on scripture/faith/works/church/mediation, they do get it right in my opinion. It took me a long time observing how centuries of one man and his bible can do more damage to god's church than the medieval-rennaissance vatican ever did before I came back to this point of view.

And the pendulum swings...

[McCulloch]

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

There is one true church and it is not the Roman Catholic one.

2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

The church is the Body of Christ. There is no salvation outside of that body.

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

God has revealed his truth to humans in the scriptures. The Holy Bible consisting of 66 books is sufficient, nothing more is required to understand what God wants of humans.

4) Is faith the only means necessary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

You require faith to be saved. True faith however, can be shown in deeds. Good deeds do not merit salvation, but they are necessary for one to be saved. Salvation is an unmerited gift from God (grace), available only to the faithful who act on their faith.

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

Where it goes beyond the Scriptures, it is unnecessary and thus divisive. Where it contradicts the Scriptures either directly (calling a human priest Father) or by example (baptizing infants) it is heretical.

All answers according to one particular literalist interpretation of the Bible.

[sleepyhead]

Hello winepusher,

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that the Israelites during the time of Moses and Joshua, and that the church in Jerusalem during the time of the original apostles, were one true churches. What earmarks are there relative to them which made them different.
The one thing I see, is that they had to mind there P's and Q's or God would zap them. Two of Aarons sons were zaped when they offered strange fire. God sent plagues for one infraction or another. In the Jerusalem church God zapped Annias and saphira for fudging on there contribution to the church. One guy was struck either blind or dumb, (forget which) for wanting to buy the holy ghost. If the true church was around now it should have these same earmarks.

[nonjuror2003]

Obviously, many contemporary christian denominations rose from the reformation, thus it cannot be disputed that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

I believe it is. The Church being the Body of Christ and we the baptised being made Children of God!

[quote 2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

Christ being the Catholic Church and the only path! having said that, we as mortals do not know were Christ begins and ends!

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

I believe that Christian/Catholic Faith is to be found in the Revelation of Christ and its recording in Scripture as well as its interpretation and explanation by the Holy Fathers in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. These being guided by the Holy Ghost!

4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

Good works should be a result of a proper faith!

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

Roman Catholic Theology is faulty through the introduction of additions to the Deposit of Faith once revealed. I.E. The Infallibility of the Bishop of Rome and the Universal Jurisdiction of the same. There are other instances, but most stem from these two.

Further what we know as the Roman Catholic Church today is an off shoot of the Council of Trent 1545/1564. When the Bishops of Northern Europe led by the Papal officials became part of a Coup at Trent! This resulted in what John Evelyn and others referred to as The New Church of Trent!

[fredonly]

Further what we know as the Roman Catholic Church today is an off shoot of the Council of Trent 1545/1564. When the Bishops of Northern Europe led by the Papal officials became part of a Coup at Trent![/b] This resulted in what John Evelyn and others referred to as The New Church of Trent!

Every church Council had SOME effect on the Catholic Church. Trent was the response to the Protestant Reformation, reaffirming existing doctrine, clarifying other doctrine, and to condemn the unorthodox doctrines of the Protestants.

You seem to have a different view of Trent. Please describe the negative, radical changes you believe came out of Trent that so drastically altered the church.

[nonjuror2003]

Further what we know as the Roman Catholic Church today is an off shoot of the Council of Trent 1545/1564. When the Bishops of Northern Europe led by the Papal officials became part of a Coup at Trent![/b] This resulted in what John Evelyn and others referred to as The New Church of Trent!

Every church Council had SOME effect on the Catholic Church. Trent was the response to the Protestant Reformation, reaffirming existing doctrine, clarifying other doctrine, and to condemn the unorthodox doctrines of the Protestants.

The Councils are the chosen vehicles of the College of Bishops [ and the first is referred to in Acts 15!] the Ecumenical Councils are the Magisterium of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Body of Christ! [There are seven of the latter.] They are also infallible [after the event of acceptance,] to all Catholics.
I have the idea that when you refer to the, 'Catholic Church,'you mean what is in fact the Roman Catholic Church, which isn't quite the same thing!

I do indeed ,'have a different view of Trent,' in that Trent is a vast break from Tradition! This is a serious matter in that the Church depends on Tradition to guide , interprete and explain for her over the two thousand years the teaching of Revelation and scripture.

The Ecumenical Councils were all called by the Emperor, possibly at the behest of the Catholic Bishops. He or his servants , regulated them sending out invitations to the bishops throughout the known world with information necessary as to time and place, in agenda's dictated by the senior bishops! The Bishops travelled by public transport on official routes at the cost of the state if necessary. They were billeted by the government in decent accomodation at government expense, again if necessary! The Costs of the Council itself was met from public funds and the whole business was overlooked and regulated by the Emperor's commissioners!
Whilst this might shock us today, it was a means of keeping the Councils free from malign influence!
By the time of Trent there was no Roman Emperor, the last one died 1453 fighting the Turks against the infidel attacking his city, Constantinople! [29th, May!]
Trent was called by the papacy, it was not free from bias, the pope was the major problem after two hundred years of conciliarist opposition to his claims. The Council sat in the realm of the Pope supporters. It was run by the pope's servants who invited only those people whom the pope allowed. Though the Bishops and theologians called for a, 'free council', this was ignored and the whole thing was a Vatican publicity effort.
Because Trent failed to meet the requirements demanded by Catholic Tradition, attendance never met expectations or indeed hope! The result was that the Bishop of Rome resorted to ordering the Italian bishops to attend, when they cried poverty it is claimed he paid their expenses, when numbers didn't rise to a satisfactory level Rome had to ordain new bishops in an effort to pack the assembly! Tight control was kept regarding the organisational committee, membership and all resolutions or material for discussion had to be passed through the censors office in the Vatican. Further the Council members were split in to two groups at least and neither were allowed to inform or discuss with the other group the subjects given or the points raised. Finally the agreed canons were not accepted by the bishops until the Pope had given his consent!

You seem to have a different view of Trent. Please describe the negative, radical changes you believe came out of Trent that so drastically altered the church.

reaffirming existing doctrine, clarifying other doctrine, and to condemn the unorthodox doctrines of the Protestants.

The doctrines reaffirmed were not always, 'Catholic Doctrines,' . They were medieval accretions i.e Transubstantiation, Purgatory and Marian Departures from the faith, the worst thing of all that happened at Trent was that a large part of the College of Bishops resigned their responsibilities on to the shoulders of the Bishop of Rome. Thus going against the teachings of Holy Tradition and the Seven Councils. In essence most people believed that what had happened was the formation of a New Church , the Church of Trent! Seeing in the growing claims for infallibility and the papal claims for jurisdiction a decided break from Tradition. The question chiefly asked of the ROMAN"s in the following years was, "Where was your Church before Trent" or the equally apposite, "Where were you before Luther?" It was the Anglican Bishops who opposed the claims that Rome was The "Anti Christ". What had happened was a Coup Detat! Before Trent, the Roman Catholic Church was the Church of Italy and the three major islands. Known in history as the Suburbicarian Church, a particular Church, such as we find in Anglicanism and Orthodoxy. What we've got now is a Catholic Sect, not the Catholic Church , the Church is the Body of Christ and holds to the Revelation of Christ, Scripture and Seven Councils.

Books/Sources. Kidd's Counter Reformation
Littledale's Council of Trent!

Apologies for delay in replying, I've been away on holiday recouping from an accident!

[Gracchus]

Obviously, many contemporary christian denominations rose from the reformation, thus it cannot be disputed that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church.

Well, of course Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew. Paul was the founder of Christianity, a blend of rudimentary Jewish theology and popular mystery religions.

However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.

That is the claim.

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

Is there such a thing as a true church?

2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

What is salvation and can you demonstrate that it has ever been found?

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

"Scripture" is (obviously) not the only source of truth.

4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the
LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to
walk humbly with thy God?" KJV Micah 6:8

There doesn't seem to be a requirement to believe in original sin, vicarious atonement, the primacy of Peter or any other nonsense.

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

It is unbelievably silly.

[S-word]

Obviously, many contemporary christian denominations rose from the reformation, thus it cannot be disputed that the Catholic Church was the first Christian Church.

Well, of course Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew. Paul was the founder of Christianity, a blend of rudimentary Jewish theology and popular mystery religions.

However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.

That is the claim.

1) Is the catholic church the true church?

Is there such a thing as a true church?

2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

What is salvation and can you demonstrate that it has ever been found?

3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

"Scripture" is (obviously) not the only source of truth.

4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the
LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to
walk humbly with thy God?" KJV Micah 6:8

There doesn't seem to be a requirement to believe in original sin, vicarious atonement, the primacy of Peter or any other nonsense.

5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

It is unbelievably silly.

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; Well, of course Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew. Paul was the founder of Christianity, a blend of rudimentary Jewish theology and popular mystery religions.

S-word’s RESPONSE; How can Paul, who was subject to the authority of James, the brother of “Jesus the Jew� have been the founder of Christianity, when the Nag Hammadi Logion 12, reveals Jesus as naming his brother James as the leader of his body of followers once he had left them. This is also made quite clear in the writings of the 2nd century Jewish author, ‘Hegesippus’ and Eusebius of Caesarea, in the fourth century, who quotes from Hegesippus, speaks of James the Righteous as being the first to be elected to the Episcopal throne of the church of Christ in Jerusalem.

After James was murdered in 62 AD, he was succeeded by his half brother, Simon the son of Cleopas who is also called ‘Alphaeus.’ Alphaeus/Cleopas is the of father of James the younger of Mary’s three biological sons, and of Simeon and Thomas Didymus Jude, who were apparently born of another woman. Matthew 13: 55; “Isn’t he the carpenters son? Isn’t Mary his mother, aren’t James, Joseph, Simon and Judas his brothers? Aren’t all his sisters living here?

The second born son of Mary the wife of Cleopas, who stood at the cross of her first born son Jesus, was named Joseph, of who we know near to nothing, although it is believed by some that he was the Joseph from Arimathea, who buried Jesus in his own family tomb that had never been used. There are several other bishops of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, who are believed to have been blood relatives of the Man Jesus.

The universal church which is based on the lie that Jesus was somehow born of a virgin, which is totally unbiblical and was spread throughout the earth by the enemies of Christ who refused to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, was established in 365 AD by the theologically illiterate, non-christian, King Constantine.


QUOTE: GRACCHUS; However, the Church also claims it to be the one true church, with Peter as its first pope.
That is the claim.

S-word’s RESPONSE; One of the many false claims made by that church who base their doctrine on tradition, and when the scripture and tradition contradict; they will opt for the tradition every time.

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; Is the catholic church the true church

S-word’s RESPONSE; Definitely not.

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; Is there such a thing as a true church?

S-word’s RESPONSE; Yes, and the true church, is the body of those who are united in their belief in the fact that the man Jesus, who was the obedient servant to our indwelling ancestral Father, and the compilation of all the spirits of Good people who had fallen asleep in righteousness after having paid the blood price for the inherited sin of Adam, and who were gathered to the bosom of Abraham, in who dwelt, behind the veil to the body of Abraham, the righteous living spirit of "Enoch.�

Enoch is the only man to have been redeemed from the old world that was destroyed by water, and is the living spirit which rose from the baptismal waters of the earth in which the old body of man, in which Adam was the human ancestral spirit, was submerged, and from which the new body of mankind arose, in which Enoch was the living ancestral spirit.

Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives, are all direct genetic descendants of Enoch through his six sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad, and behind the veil to the inner most sanctuary of ever person who has descended from Noah, dwells the living spirit of Enoch our Father and our savior.

And Jesus the compilation and obedient servant of that enclosure of righteous spirits who had been Judged in the flesh as all mankind is judged, and who never himself committed the sin of Adam, which was the disobedience to our ancestral God, was the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man. And those of the true church who win the victory, will be given the right to sit beside our brother Jesus, who also won the victory and now sits at the right hand of our Father, in his throne, as the Godhead of all creation. Revelation 3: 21; “To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me in my throne, Just as I have been victorious and now sit by my/ our Father on his throne.

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; (2) Can salvation be found outside of the church?

S-word’s RESPONSE; If you are referring to the universal church that was established in 325 AD, by the theologically illiterate non-christian Constantine, which church was founded on the great lie, that some immortal and eternal god who was supposed to have been the co-creator of the cosmos, and who came down to earth and entered into the womb of some imaginary virgin, where his father with whom their “Jesus� was supposed to have created the cosmos, then created for his immortal and eternal son, a humanlike body that was not of the seed of Adam from who, has come every human being who has ever existed. Then obviously, the answer to your question is a definite “YES.�

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; What is salvation and can you demonstrate that it has ever been found?

S-word’s RESPONSE; Yes! Salvation is in the resurrection of the dead into eternal life, and this can be demonstrated in the life, death and resurrection of the Man Jesus, of whom it is written in Acts 17 : 31; “For God has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.�
,

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; (3) Is scripture the only source for truth? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Scriptura.

S-word’s RESPONSE; No!

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; "Scripture" is (obviously) not the only source of truth.

S-word’s RESPONSE; I believe in the scientific theory of an eternal cyclic universe, that rolls up as a scroll and the elements burn and fall as fire into the Great Abyss, or black Hole (The Grave) where all that is in existence in this visible three dimensional world is condensed back into the infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity of Origin, and the intellect that has developed within this three dimensional world, which mind/spirit, will then, from the invisible fourth dimension that co-exists within this visible world, (For the kingdom of God is within you) cries out, "Let there be Light," as the singularity of origin is torn asunder with a big bang for the resurrection of the universal body in which the universal intellect, who had evolved as the supreme personality, witnesses the resurrection of his body.

I believe as do the Buddhists, that Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.� ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.

I believe that the nights and days of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that precedes the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.

I believe that the English word “Generation,� is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth� which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,� or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period of the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.

I believe, as did Origen, who was a Christian writer and teacher who lived between the years of 185 and 254 AD. Among his many works is the Hexapla, which is his interpretation of the Old Testament texts. Origen holds to a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.


QUOTE: GRACCHUS; (4) Is faith the only means neccesary to get to heaven? As Martin Luther suggested Sola Fides, or are good deeds also worth merit.

S-word’s RESPONSE; Faith without works is dead.

QUOTE;GRACCHUS; "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" KJV Micah 6:8

S-word’s RESPONSE; What more can one say, other than to clarify “But to do justly�. Two men can tell the same lie to the same angry mob, who wish to kill someone who had stolen their life’s savings. Both know where the man is hidden, but both lie and tell the mob that he was no where around and had ran off. One man’s lie, was out of love for his brother and to save him from the death that he would have surely suffered, his lie will be counted to him as righteousness. The other man’s lie, was in order that he could later interrogate the man and find out where he had hidden the money so that he might take possession of it for himself, his lie will be counted to him as an act of evil.

For I tell you now that you can lie, there is a time to steal
There is a time to disobey; there is a time to kill
There is a work that must be done upon the Sabbath day
No one who understands the Lord would teach another way.

For the Lord God Judges not, on what you do
The heart and soul of man he searches through
The reason---why the deeds of man are done
This is what the Lord God judges on….By S-word

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; There doesn't seem to be a requirement to believe in original sin, vicarious atonement, the primacy of Peter or any other nonsense.

S-word’s RESPONSE; So it would seem, but then that depends on what your definition of what nonsense is.


QUOTE: GRACCHUS; (5) What objections are there to Roman Catholic Theology?

S-word’s RESPONSE; Good heavens, where would one begin.

QUOTE: GRACCHUS; It is unbelievably silly.

S-word’s RESPONSE; If you are referring to catholic theology, then I must agree with you.