Is America the greatest country in the world?

[anotheratheisthere]

this post has two sections.

The fist half will just be a list of facts. Objetive statistical data from reputable and trustworthy sources such as the UN or the US DOS. they are in no particular order, I just added them as I found them.

The second half will be my interpretation of what these figures mean, and an invitation to discussion.

FACT: America is the industrialized country with the highest murder rate in the world. A higher rate than many third world countries.

FACT: America is the industrialized country with the highest rape rate in the world

FACT: America is the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world. more than China or Cuba. The percentage of people who are deprived of their freedom in America is greater than that in any other country, possibly in History.

FACT: We are the greatest exporters of weapons in the world.

FACT: Over the last 50 years, the US Government has killed more civilians than any other entity in the world.

FACT: 12 countries have a higher Quality of Life/Human Developement Index than the US.

FACT: We rank 38th in life expectancy.

FACT: We rank 48 in Infant Mortality, doing worse than Cuba.

FACT: We rank 19th in literacy. Below Cuba, Estonia, Latvia, Barbados, Slovenia, Lithuania, Armania, Hungary, Poland, Albania, Russia and more.

FACT: Our children rank in the bottom half amoung industrialized countries in math skills, scientific knowledge and problem solving skillls.

FACT: We have a larger percentage of people living below the poverty line than at least 7 countries, according to the CIA, and 12 countries according to the UN

FACT: We are the only industrialized country where people go bankrupt if they get sick

FACT: We are the only industrialized country where if you can't afford life saving surgery, you die.

FACT: We have more obese people per capita than any country in the world.

FACT: We have more obese people in the military per capita than any country in the world

FACT: We are ranked 37th in quality of healthcare

FACT: We spend more money per capita on healthcare than any country in the world.

FACT: We spend more money on war (aka "National Defense") than any other country. More than all countries in Europe combined.

FACT: We waste more energy per capita than any country in the world.

FACT: We drink more water per capita than any country in the world.

FACT: We are not number 1 in high school or college graduation rate

FACT: We are not the number 1 in post graduate degree issuance rate

FACT: We rank 20th in internet access as a percentage of the total population.

FACT: 14 countries have more Nobel recepients per capita than the US. Among the countries that beat us, 3 are third world countries.

FACT: We have the greatest income inequality in the civilized world. We are the only industrialized country in the world where the top 1% has more money than the bottom 95%. (South Africa beats us, but I am not sure if it counts as a developed nation)

FACT: We have the highest teen birth rate and teen abourtion rate in the undustrialized world. More than double that of most European countries.

FACT: 9 countries have more income per capita than the US. If you incorporate income inequality in the equation, or if you exclude the top 1% from the calculation, the median "Middle Class" American has lower income per capita than almost all European countries.

FACT: The average US Soldier has a lower net worth than the average soldier in 11 European countries.

FACT: We have one of the lowest voter turnout rate in the civilized world.

FACT: We have more serial killers per capita than any country in the world.

FACT: We have the greatest rate of pedophilia in the world.

FACT: In America, a lower percentage of people have a passport, or has ever visited a foreign country, than in any Eurpoean country.

FACT: Less people speak a 2nd language in America than in any country in Europe.

FACT: Less people know the name of their chief executive in America, than in any other European Country.

FACT: Less people know what form of Government their country has in America than anywhere in Europe.

FACT: THe US ranks 97th on the "Global Peace Index", which measures the peacefulness of a country.

FACT: 4 countries are rated Higher than the US on the Wall street Journal's "Index of Economic Freedom"

FACT: The US ranks 48th on the Press Freedom Index

FACT: The US has a higher suicide rate than 22 other countries

FACT: The US has more incest per capita than any industrialized country

FACT: The US ranks 151st on GDP Growth Rate, meaning 150 countries are getting richer at a faster rate than the US is.

FACT: The US ranks 30th in the Privacy Index, which determines the degree to which citizens are protected from corporate and governmental surveilance.

FACT: The US ranks 39th in the Environmental Performance Index, which measures the degree to which a country's policies avoids damaging the environment.

FACT: America is the only country in the civilized world where "Intelligent design" is actually taught in science classrooms.

FACT: America is the country in which the highest percentage of the population thinks Chrsitianity predates Judaism.

FACT: Among industrialized countries, America has the largest percentage of people who think the world is flat, largest percentage who think the world is literally 6000 years old, and largest percentage of people who think the sun orbits around the earth.

FACT: America is the country with the largest arsenal of nulear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.

I don't know if I have much of a conclusion to make, except maybe this:

People who say "America is the greatest country in the world" are delusional.

I can understand a statement such as "I love my country more than anything in the world" because it's a subjective statement. I can even understand "America is a great country", or "America's creation (except for slavery and the genocide of native americans) was an amazing new experiment in democracy and freedom, which can be matched by no more than a half dozen similarly great phenomenons"

But a statement such as "America is the greatest country in the world" is an objective, quantifiable and demonstrably false statement.

One could say "America is the strongest military power in the world, although comunist China owns our ass economically, so military might doesn't really matter that much, since we couldn't get away with using it against anybody other than 3rd world countries".

One could say "America used to be the greatest country in the world, before Asia had emerged, and when Europe was still trying to rebuild itself after WWII", but how is that relevant to the current situation?

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. I'd LOVE TO be wrong. If somebody has a rational explanation for how America is the Greatest Country in the World, please let me know.

[cnorman18]

I tend to agree with Joey. One measure of how "great" a country is, as good as any other definition of the term, is how many people THINK it is - especially among those who don't live there and aren't citizens.

Hey cnorman, immigration, and people's general "opinion of America" are indeed social indicators worth considering. I fully accept the blame for not listing them.

I concede that the fully sourced data you provide proves that the US has a lot of immigration. Although not a greater immigration per capita than Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultu ... per_capita)

Like I said to McCulloch, I don't see how per capita immigration is relevant to anything. Three times as many immigrants come to America as to the nation in second place, and more immigrants come to America than all the other nations in the world combined. How is the per capita number probative of anything? As I said, if five people moved to Andorra, that would probably double its usual immigration rate. So what? Even if its per capita rate is now the highest in the world, only five people wanted to move there. 37.5 million moved to America in 2006.

Nonetheless, immigration is undisputedly a fact in the US's favor, I accept your accusation of bias in deciding not to list it, and (possibly in my continued bias) I have two responses to the immigration thing:

1) Somebody pointed out earlier that America having lesser mobility and lower polyglotism than Europe is not necessarily a point against the US, or is at least highly mitigated by the demographic necessities bringing it about. America is so much bigger than your average European country, that of course, given the same amount of mobility, a person in the US will visit less countries (and therefore learn less languages?).

The same mitigation must be applied to the immigration issue, taking historical context into consideration. After we finished exterminating the natives, America was virtually an empty country with vast resources and vast potential. Europe was just recovering from two major wars and had very low standard of living. Of course these circumstances would set up a massive trend of migration to the US - a trend which would be perpetuated by social inertia long after the objective data would justify it. Of course people in third world countries think america is the promised land, that belief has been instilled into them from birth. It's much like the belief that only Italy can make good wine, which is widely believed in Italy. Even the most enthusiastic wine taster can't tell the difference between a bottle of wine from Tuscany and one from California, South Africa, Chile or Australia, but they sick to their belief through inertia.

2) Regardless of the Immigration thing, which I tentatively and reluctantly concede, so what? I reject the "people vote with their feet" argument, because the overwhelming majority of refugees and immigrants from 3rd world countries "vote" based on out of date and inaccurate information.

All true enough, or maybe ("out of date and inaccurate information" about what?); but now you've moved into imposing explanations on the facts, and therefore well beyond your idea that "facts speak for themselves." See, just listing facts doesn't prove anything; you have to discuss the reasons for them and their significance, just as you have here.

All you have is one good thing about America - strong immigration - and a huge pile of negative things...

According to your selection of the facts you choose to cite, that is. Do you really think that immigration is the only place where the US is, in fact, provably #1? Do you allege that your selection of facts is the only selection that's possible, relevant, or reasonable?

- high murder, high rape, low life expectancy, low literacy, bad treatment of children, bad healthcare, corruption, violence, teen pregnancy, low graduation, high infant mortality, poverty, obesity, income inequality, low voter turnout, little press freedom, low IQ, high foreign debt, etc etc etc

Find me a dozen irrefutable positive statistical facts about America, at least as objective and as objectively positive as the murder rate in the US is objective and objectively negative, and then we can talk.

Why would I do that? I don't disagree with your thesis. I never said that America is the greatest country in the world; I said that many people seem to think so, which is certainly a relevant measure.

My own position? I think America has the POTENTIAL to be the greatest country in the world by almost any measure. It has not, so far, lived up to its potential, in some areas to a truly execrable degree. That seems to me to be a reasonable, non-propagandistic, non-jingoistic, and non-partisan way to express it.

Now, I would say again that your CHOICE of the facts you wish to examine is a measure of bias here, whether your facts are accurate or not; it frankly looks like you just went to Google and started searching for all the negative statistics you could find.

Guilty as charged. I am biased.

And as long as we're on the subject, I'd like to see your source for this:

Among industrialized countries, America has the largest percentage of people who think the world is flat, largest percentage who think the world is literally 6000 years old, and largest percentage of people who think the sun orbits around the earth.

That's the kind of claim that could come from a polemic site and have nothing to do with actual research or reliable statistics. The same could be said for some other "facts" you have posted. Without a link or reference, no one here has any reason to take these claims any more seriously or discuss their significance. Again, your agenda in choosing the facts you want to highlight is showing.

Again, I am definitely biased. I admit it. Most of the data I present is irrefutable, some of it slipped through the cracks. I saw that data being listed on Bill Mahar. It was wrong and misleading for me to include it in the mix and give you the impression that our ignorance of heliocentricity or the planet's age, is as objective a fact as the degree to which we murder each other.

So, if the debate is "Is anotheratheisthere biased", then you win the debate.

That's not the debate, but considering your earlier claims about not having a position and the mere listing of facts not constituting taking a position, it was a point that needed to be made. Those claims were disingenuous and tactical, and not honest debate.

If the debate is "Is anoheratheisthere extremely good at debating and never makes mistakes in presenting his data" then the answer is no and you win the debate.

Never indicated that either. Kind of a strawman, seems to me....

But the debate is "Is America the greatest country in the world". if you care to challenge my claim that it isn't, please do so.

Please show me where I have indicated I would challenge that claim. I can show you three or four quotes where I haven't.

To look at the enormous evidence in my favor and point at imperfections in my case, or to meaninglessly attempt to extrapolate my personal opinions from the "choice of specific way in which I present the evidence", is an attempt at deflection.

No, it's not. It goes directly to the heart of your implied, but clearly present, claims - that a list of facts explains itself, and that the careful and admittedly biased selection of those facts doesn't stack the deck in favor of your conclusions. When YOU choose the evidence, you don't get to crow about "the enormous evidence in my favor."

I also fail to understand why you think your opinions should be invisible or barred from debate. They're pretty obviously relevant here, especially since you have admitted your own bias.

Again, present as many statistical facts as I did, of which at least as many are irrefutably sound and undeniable, and which present the US in a good light, and then we can have an honest debate balancing my biased selection and interpretation of the data with your biased selection and interpretation of the data.

Sorry, can't be bothered. I've never claimed that America IS the greatest country in the world, and I don't think that anyone who does is necessarily alleging a provable fact. I think it's invariably a matter of opinion.

My own opinion, I have already stated - both on the "greatness" of America and the validity and worth of "debates" like this one.

So far I we've got all the things I mentioned, and you've got immigration, the validity of which I've punched some holes into.

From my perspective, we have a list of facts, including mine, exactly two of which we have discussed in detail. That's a long way from conclusive.

Here's a counteroffer; if you want to choose one (1) issue from your exhaustive list and begin discussing the reasons for it and its significance, let's go. You may find we agree on many of them. But I'll stand by what I said; a kitchen-sink, look-how-awful-America-is diatribe of selected facts and figures is no more than an exercise in propaganda - and having a contest of who can carefully select the most facts is just as pointless.

Regardless of the fact that I didn't state my case flawlessly, can't you agree that objectively not only is my opinion that America isn't the greatest country in the world reasonable, but that, in reverse, the opinion that America is the greatest country in the world is unreasonable?

Yes, and no. I have already agreed that your opinion, as stated, is reasonable and rational.

But I would say that the opinion that "America is the greatest country in the world" is no more unreasonable than a man's opinion that his daughter is the prettiest and smartest girl in the world. And I wouldn't argue with either of them.

It's not a serious proposition of objective fact. It's a freaking CHEER. "Hooray for us!" Maybe you root for another team. Maybe you're about America like one of my clients was about the Washington Redskins - his favorite two teams were the Cowboys and "whoever's against the Redskins."

Whatever. You're free to despise America to whatever degree you like, and mock and sneer at those who don't as "delusional" or whatever (though, as has been pointed out, those are against forum rules). That's your opinion. Not my cup of tea, that's all.

To be honest myself, it appears that you're backing away from the logical extension of your selected facts; it would appear that you're trying to make a case for, not America not being the BEST country in the world, but for America as the WORST country in the world, and by multiple measures. If that's what you think, why not come out and say so instead of dancing this "You can't tell what my position is" tango that fools nobody? What IS your position on America, if this one is so horribly wrong? What should replace it?

For myself, if I WERE going to consider another country as the greatest in the world as a factual matter, besides this one I'd have to give serious consideration to both Australia and the Netherlands. New Zealand, too. Canada would be high on my list. Don't know, doesn't interest me much.

But for me, the greatest country to live in, rather a different matter, will still be this one. I admit my bias, too. I was born here, I like it here, I think I'm gonna stay, and I prefer to think on the positives about my country and how to improve the things that are wrong with it.

Celebrating what's wrong with it isn't high on my to-do list.

[anotheratheisthere]

For the record, I don't claim that the US is the greatest country in the world; but a helluvalot of people sure seem to think so. I think that's relevant, too.

And some of them not even Americans.

Well, the fact that lots of people believe the US is the greatest country in the world while ignoring all the objective social and economic indicators is about as relevant as the fact that lots of people believe Mary was a Virgin ignoring the scientific evidence of it's impossibility.

Is it relevant that many people believe that America is the greatest country in the world, or that Mary was a virgin? Yes, it's relevant.

Does it contribute one iota to the discussion on whether either claim is the objective truth? No

If belief by a large fragment of society was that standard to which a fact was held to determine if it's true, we'd still believe Apollo drags the sun up with a chariot every morning, we'd still believe the earth is flat, we'd still believe women are property, and we'd still believe people can walk on water.

[McCulloch]

Like I said to McCulloch, I don't see how per capita immigration is relevant to anything.

What do you know? McDonald's is the greatest restaurant in the world.

[cnorman18]

Per capita rates are relevant how?

Unless you wish to claim that McDonald's is the greatest restaurant, then yes per capita rates are relevant. The fact that the US has 100 times more immigrants than Denmark does not indicate that the US is a more desirable destination.

Not to be egregiously dense, but why on Earth not?

If more people want to vacation in Tahiti than Beirut, doesn't that mean it's a more desirable place? More people "desire" it = "more desirable."

Doesn't mean it's "the best country in the world," but it does mean that more people want to come here than want to go to Denmark. I don't see how the population of the country people are moving into is relevant to that measure at all, any more than its area in square kilometers would be.

In absolute numbers, the US has accepted more than three times as many immigrants as the nation in second place (Russia, for the record). I don't see that that translates into "how many stay" compared to other nations.

It does not. That came later.

Must have missed it.

For the record, I don't claim that the US is the greatest country in the world; but a helluvalot of people sure seem to think so. I think that's relevant, too.

And some of them not even Americans.

I just don't think wholesale pillorying of any nation is particularly useful.

Probably not. But it is the source of our nation's identity and our national pastime. We are really really sorry we burned down the White House in 1814. It looks nice now.

Tsk. Jealousy doesn't become you, as a nation or any other way.

Anyway, Canada has been a traditional destination for people of conscience fleeing the USA: United Empire Loyalists; Escaped Slaves; political refugees during the Cold War; American draft dodgers during the Vietnam War; military deserters objectors to the Iraq war.

Just as America has become the traditional destination for Canadians who can't get adequate health care in a timely manner?

See? You can do this with any country. It's just cheerleading or booing. Talking constructively about the individual problems we have here is one thing; just listing them en masse and without much regard to their reliability, in order to take shots at it, is something else entirely. It's the political equivalent of a junior-high-school "slam book" where you have all your friends write down everything they hate about somebody. The point beyond "America is just so awful, yucky-poo!" escapes me entirely.

Like I said; Whatever. I'm used to people badmouthing where I'm from without letting it bother me much. I'm a Texan.

[anotheratheisthere]

Look cnorman, we seem to be spinning out from the central point, and our debate is becoming way too fragmented - branching out into a zillion micro threads.

Lets see if we can properly communicate to each other what we do agree on, and what we don't agree on, so at least we can debate what we don't agree on, instead of just going round in circles just to find out we don't really disagree.

So, correct me if I'm wrong in any of these assumptions:

We both agree that for one to say "My daughter is the prittiest girl in the world" is not to be interpreted as an objective claim by the father. A statement such as "The Red Sox are the best" by a fan, should also not be interpreted that way.

We both agree that for one to say "America is the greatest country in the world" with the same intentions as the father talking about the daughter he loves, or a fan about his team, is acceptable.

My point (and tell me if you disagree - although I don't think you do) is that if we remain in the realm of subjective statements which don't require proof, peer review or data to back it up, such as "I love my daughter, I love the Yankees, I love my Country, that girl is hot, or Jesus died for our sins", then there is no right and wrong. Every statement is ultimately just as valid as its opposite statement.

Therefore, in our debate about America's greatness or lack thereof, we should try to stick exclusively to objective data. Anytime we deviate from that, we enter a realm where my opinion is just as valid as yours and all debate is impossible.

Well, I have a bunch of additional steps in my reasoning, but lets see if you agree thus far.

[cnorman18]

Look cnorman, we seem to be spinning out from the central point, and our debate is becoming way too fragmented - branching out into a zillion micro threads.

That is what I think needs to happen if you want this to be a debate that actually has meaning. We can talk about these issues individually; the list, without discussion and debate about every issue on it, has no significance in itself, though you still seem to think that it does.

Lets see if we can properly communicate to each other what we do agree on, and what we don't agree on, so at least we can debate what we don't agree on, instead of just going round in circles just to find out we don't really disagree.

So, correct me if I'm wrong in any of these assumptions:

We both agree that for one to say "My daughter is the prittiest girl in the world" is not to be interpreted as an objective claim by the father. A statement such as "The Red Sox are the best" by a fan, should also not be interpreted that way.

We both agree that for one to say "America is the greatest country in the world" with the same intentions as the father talking about the daughter he loves, or a fan about his team, is acceptable.

My point (and tell me if you disagree - although I don't think you do) is that if we remain in the realm of subjective statements which don't require proof, peer review or data to back it up, such as "I love my daughter, I love the Yankees, I love my Country, that girl is hot, or Jesus died for our sins", then there is no right and wrong. Every statement is ultimately just as valid as its opposite statement.

Agreed on all that. You can't really debate "It's a lovely day!" as a factual matter either.

Therefore, in our debate about America's greatness or lack thereof, we should try to stick exclusively to objective data. Anytime we deviate from that, we enter a realm where my opinion is just as valid as yours and all debate is impossible.

Well, I have a bunch of additional steps in my reasoning, but lets see if you agree thus far.

Sorry, I don't. I disagree with your premise. I don't think even "America is a great country" is a well-defined enough assertion to be conducive to debate at all.

Joey is right. You can't debate how "great" America is - or how "great" ANYTHING is - until you define what you mean by "great" and establish that the facts, the measures you're using, are relevant to that definition. I don't really see a debate here at all, now that we've established that "America is the greatest country in the world" is not a factual claim, but a subjective opinion. I don't know what else there was to prove in the first place.

It remains really hard to see the point of this thread other than gratuitous and nonconstructive America-bashing. Shall we talk about all the facts that prove that, say, Saudi Arabia isn't the greatest country in the world now? How about Russia? Armenia?

Why ever not? Those would be just as probative and conclusive as THIS debate.

[JoeyKnothead]

...Joey is right. You can't debate how "great" America is - or how "great" ANYTHING is - until you define what you mean by "great" and establish that the facts, the measures you're using, are relevant to that definition. I don't really see a debate here at all, now that we've established that "America is the greatest country in the world" is not a factual claim, but a subjective opinion. I don't know what else there was to prove in the first place.

It remains really hard to see the point of this thread other than gratuitous and nonconstructive America-bashing...

I 'preciate that.

Johnny Cash, Elvis, Flatt & Scruggs.
Man on the Moon.
Twinkies.
Ford Mustang.
Smoky Mountains.
Baseball, football and basketball.
The Beverly Hillbillies.
LSD.
Jim Beam.

Why is my list not as relevant as the OP's?

In the end we all look to the data we consider most relevant in determining what is the "greatest".

[cnorman18]

...Joey is right. You can't debate how "great" America is - or how "great" ANYTHING is - until you define what you mean by "great" and establish that the facts, the measures you're using, are relevant to that definition. I don't really see a debate here at all, now that we've established that "America is the greatest country in the world" is not a factual claim, but a subjective opinion. I don't know what else there was to prove in the first place.

It remains really hard to see the point of this thread other than gratuitous and nonconstructive America-bashing...

I 'preciate that.

Johnny Cash, Elvis, Flatt & Scruggs.
Man on the Moon.
Twinkies.
Ford Mustang.
Smoky Mountains.
Baseball, football and basketball.
The Beverly Hillbillies.
LSD.
Jim Beam.

Why is my list not as relevant as the OP's?

In the end we all look to the data we consider most relevant in determining what is the "greatest".

You forgot Marilyn Monroe, Victoria's Secret and Frederick's of Hollywood.

(You know, I went into Victoria's Secret the other day and saw that they're selling sweatshirts in there now. That's just wrong...)

ETA - I think LSD was discovered by a Swiss guy. I could be wrong.

[JoeyKnothead]

...Joey is right. You can't debate how "great" America is - or how "great" ANYTHING is - until you define what you mean by "great" and establish that the facts, the measures you're using, are relevant to that definition. I don't really see a debate here at all, now that we've established that "America is the greatest country in the world" is not a factual claim, but a subjective opinion. I don't know what else there was to prove in the first place.

It remains really hard to see the point of this thread other than gratuitous and nonconstructive America-bashing...

I 'preciate that.

Johnny Cash, Elvis, Flatt & Scruggs.
Man on the Moon.
Twinkies.
Ford Mustang.
Smoky Mountains.
Baseball, football and basketball.
The Beverly Hillbillies.
LSD.
Jim Beam.

Why is my list not as relevant as the OP's?

In the end we all look to the data we consider most relevant in determining what is the "greatest".

You forgot Marilyn Monroe, Victoria's Secret and Frederick's of Hollywood.

(You know, I went into Victoria's Secret the other day and saw that they're selling sweatshirts in there now. That's just wrong...)

ETA - I think LSD was discovered by a Swiss guy. I could be wrong.

LOL I fouled that up. I just always assumed it was created by hippies in '60s California.

Please remove LSD from the list*, and add cnorman18's excellent additions.

(*Please send all removed LSD to joeyknuccione, USA)

[Goat]

ETA - I think LSD was discovered by a Swiss guy. I could be wrong.

LOL I fouled that up. I just always assumed it was created by hippies in '60s California.

Please remove LSD from the list*, and add cnorman18's excellent additions.

(*Please send all removed LSD to joeyknuccione, USA)

While LSD was discovered by a Swiss chemist, the LDS is a purely American invention.