Jesus Preached the Gospel of Election !

beloved57 · Post by **beloved57** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:06 am

Jesus Preached the Gospel of Election ! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All that the Father giveth Me shall come unto me..

Jn 6:

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Amen, Jesus Himself taught election and special redemption in these very words..

It is very evident from this portion of the Word of God, that the Love Gift of the Father is not all humanity..This is corroborated in Jn 17..

We find throughout the whole chapter of Jn 17 who these special people people are who the Father gave unto the Son..They are those given to Jesus Christ out of the world per jn 17:6

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

In another place Jesus is saying I will declare thy name to my brethren per heb 2:12

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Those that have been singled out of the world, not because of their own freewill, repenting and believing, or doing and working, or anything that man does or think. They have been set apart by the Sovereign, electing, and discriminating eternal purpose of God, from everlasting..

They have been under Gods everlasting purpose of mercy from everlasting to everlasting ps 103:

17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Notice, this mercy is not for all mankind, but for those who Fear Him..

And fearing Him is not a condition of this mercy, but as a result of it..for none feared God from everlasting of themselves..

So this speaks to eternal election in their Head, the Lord Jesus Christ whom is from everlasting..

CalvinismIsHeresy · Post by **CalvinismIsHeresy** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:24 am

Its important that you understand that Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jews, a people, THE people rather, of the Divine Election. Jesus said "I come not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This is why Scripture says that Israel is an enemy of the Gospel for our sake but beloved and elect for the Father's sake. Its important to not apply what Christ said to Israel to everybody. Israel is dealt with separately. Very basically.

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:10 am

What an utterly blatant false representation of a text.

Totally yanked out of context. Totally. The statement regarding the lost sheep of Israel is the center of a story about a foreigner coming to Jesus, begging for help. At first he refuses, but she doesn't give up, and in the end Jesus changes his mind and affirms her faith as great.

Now, do I believe that this story actually happened? No. The story is designed as a teaching device, a symbol, to show the existential reality of the early Christian story. Yes, the movement started among Jews for Jews, but it was extended.

Some sub-points can be drawn out from the story. We don't have a God in Jesus here if his mind can be changed by a woman moved by her faith originating from an unknown source. This text would be a great argument for Grace...the persistent and uncontrollable wild joker card of God's universal grace which has its tradition in the Hebrew scriptures.

CalvinismIsHeresy · Post by **CalvinismIsHeresy** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:10 am

I was unsure about the context of the verse. Sorry. But why not hang your hat on any of the meat of my post? You chose to correct and humiliate me on an error, rightfully so maybe, but didnt address any of my actual points. Deal with the issue of Israel's separation from the rest of the world, including the Church, as it pertains to God's judgment and election. Israel is a picture of national election, not personal election and yes of course it had to start with a person, i.e. Jacob, but the Scripture concerning Jacobs election is silent concerning the condition or destination of his soul by virtue of that election. God is no respecter of persons, and is not a God of disorder. Those two facts being known, there is NO WAY to justify unconditional election or sovereign grace. None. Thanks though.

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:36 am

Again, you yank Jacob out of context. Where in the Hebrew Scriptures do you find a separation between humanity as nation and humanity as person? The Hebrew tradition discourages that separation.

You forget. Jacob was elected, through the squirrly events he was....in a greater, much greater context:

He reconciled with his brother Esau. Now if that ain't a person and nations thang all wrapped up in one program, I don't know what is.

It's time we stop creating divisions where God don't want 'em, and git wit da program.

We don't want the planet to go boom, do we?

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:09 pm

Then, there is the elephant in the room:

Jacob is Israel.

Put that in your person-nation separator and smoke it.

CalvinismIsHeresy · Post by **CalvinismIsHeresy** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:15 pm

Thats exactly what I was saying. Jacobs election as Jacob had hardly anything if anything at all to do with Jacob. Let me help you. God said that He chose Jacob instead of Esau before they could have done anything wrong or right. Jacobs election was really just Israel's election. Hence the name change. Im not separating Jacob and Israel, thats what your doing when you apply the terms of a national election to a person. Jacob represented a nation. There is no room for separation. So if your not a nation and are in fact just a person, theres again, no model for election for you in Scripture. I think your confused. I'm here to help though.

And you error quite fatally in NOT separating humanity as a nation or a whole and humanity individually. What you are running the risk of doing is adhering to what is called ethnic or national salvation which states that your salvation is dependent not upon grace or faith, but upon the blood running through your veins or where you call home. God will deal with man individually and judge each according to what they've done in their body whether it be good or bad. Basic Bible. Just here to help.

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:02 pm

First.

The word "error" is not a verb.

Language counts. The significance of the name Israel is in the meaning of the name (God contends). This speaks to the human condition universally for Jews personally and collectively, and Jewish history has borne this name out consistently for Jews personally and collectively. A note to you: Being Jewish can be difficult. Ask a Jewish kid at Christmas.

How is Jacob only a drone in God's predator plane? He loved Esau.

And Jews really do want to make peace with Palestinians.

And why do you Christians always think you have the information and authority to say what Jews are over against their own self-understanding. You're just making up stuff....

....the perfect example of which is that you Christians ALWAYS equate race with ideas of Israel's collective election (not separated from personal). Another note to you: Klal Yisrael is multi-racial and multi-ethnic. Ever seen Ethiopian Jews? We've got Chinese Jews in my shul. Actually, I think we've made all Chinese restaurants associate Jewish shuls.

And Election ain't got nuthin to do with salvation for heaven. We Jews are not going to any golden city in the sky with flyin pink monkeys. When Messiah comes, the party is right here...for everybody. In that day, I think I shall go to Margueritaville and have a cheeseburger with Jimmy Buffet. He can try a little gefilte fish on the side. It'll work.

CalvinismIsHeresy · Post by **CalvinismIsHeresy** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:03 am

Your Messiah has already come. And He's coming again to judge his people who rejected Him because they were too married to the Law to see that He was who He said He was. Read Zechariah 9:9. Your King came lowly and riding on an ass. He was rejected by those who were to proud to be baptized with the baptism of John, which was repentance or "metanoia" or the changing of your mind. John's water was ordained to give Israel eyes to see that Jesus of Nazareth was The Son of the Living God.

Jonah · Post by **Jonah** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:59 am

You have run off the rails of the thread topic, just to sing the Hallelujah Chorus to a Jew in the house....a two thousand year old riff. Is there nothing new to say?

But, the election topic is more narrow and specific, and probably more fertile ground for new thought.

To push the envelope, what Jesus ACTUALLY preached is to be deduced from historical-critical research of the New Testament and historical investigation of other documents of the same era in addition to archaeological evidence. In the scientific sifting, you're not going to come out with Jesus de-electing Jews or coming up with a two-election mode theory.

The most insulting aspect of your posts is that they picture "Jews" as some sort of storybook nation blob instead of flesh and blood human beings with personal identities. 6 million of us died in Hitler's machine. They all have a name. And that is the point of Yad Vashem...to post the names...brothers, sister, moms, dads, grandparents, sons, daughters. The Children's Memorial is especially wrenching. You go into the underground and its dark:

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/remembr ... morial.asp

The thing that gets a Jew, any Jew, when they go through there...are the names of the children.

This is not a game.

CalvinismIsHeresy · Post by **CalvinismIsHeresy** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:32 pm

Not sure why your on some sort of Jewish heritage defense. I never attacked Israel or even spoke derogatorily of her at large. Israel's rejection of the Christ was just like the Gentiles consistent rejection of Him today. I just wanted to comment on your "when Messiah comes" statement. Its just that the Gentile was ignorant and alienated from the commonwealth and covenants of Israel when the Jew wasn't and in fact wailed and rocked at a wall for centuries, and still do ignorantly, praying for and prophesying the Messiah's advent and then when He came they missed Him because they were too proud to be baptized by the Christ's forerunner, John. One major reason for that was probably because the only baptism that was instituted in that day was what was called Proselyte baptism and it had to do with grafting Gentiles into Judaism along with circumcision of course. So when John shows up and tells a bunch of Pharisees and Sadducees that they need to be baptized they were like "Do you know who we are? We are Sons of Abraham!" Then John, being a Jew himself, who's dad was a high priest in the temple, says "I say to you out of these stones God can raise up Sons to Abraham", showing them that who their mommy and daddy was alone doesn't position them to inherit the Kingdom that was at hand and the Kingdom that was to come. And I qualify and disclaim all of this by saying that some of Israel's blindness happened according to the Sovereignty of Yahweh. Scripture teaches that God allowed blindness in part to happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentile come in, which is Christ's bride, the Church. I love Israel. Her Messiah is my Messiah and when she gets her Messiah, she'll recognize that it was Yeshua all along.