Heaven

[JBlack]

God has chosen those whom he will save through his divine election for his purposes. There is nothing any man can do to become saved but beg God for mercy unto salvation. Asking for mercy does not guarantee our salvation...
For example, the bible says if seek him and you shall find him but it also makes it clear that NO ONE seeks him, the bible says repent, but it is God who grants repentance, the bible says come to me all you who are weary, but it also teaches that NO ONE can come unless drawn by the Father, And again the bible says he who recieves me receives the one who sent me, but it also teaches that no one can receive anything unless it be given him from heaven. So while one one hand some commands may seem clear we get further clarification when we compare all of the scriptures together.

So, there's nothing anybody can do to be saved. I can become Christian, accept Jesus, repent, do as the bible says, and after I die... still go to hell?
But yet, God is just, merciful and all-loving?!?

Yes, you can do all those things above and still go to hell.

But what about verses like these?:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Questions for debate:

1. What must one do, according to the Bible, in order to go to heaven?
2. If AIEC is right, that you can become Christian and do as the Bible says, and still go to hell when you die, then what is the point of Christianity?

[myth-one.com]

But God is love! I don't claim to understand this.

I understand your predicament! No one can explain how God is love while planning eternal torment for the majority of mankind. Adding predestination so that no one has any choice in their own fate makes it even more ridiculous and ungodly!

The Bible also clearly teaches punishment by eternal torment.

Then explain this:

To become our Savior, Jesus had to serve the penalty for our sins. If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then you are claiming that Jesus is in hellfire now and for all eternity -- right?

[SpiritQuickens]

But God is love! I don't claim to understand this.

I understand your predicament! No one can explain how God is love while planning eternal torment for the majority of mankind. Adding predestination so that no one has any choice in their own fate makes it even more ridiculous and ungodly!

The Bible also clearly teaches punishment by eternal torment.

Then explain this:

To become our Savior, Jesus had to serve the penalty for our sins. If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then you are claiming that Jesus is in hellfire now and for all eternity -- right?

Interestingly enough, the context in which I said "God is love!", had to do with reconciling the fact that "God is love" with the fact that, there is a sense in which God hates certain people. There are plenty of attributes of God that seem to be counterintuitive to us. God is three and one at the same time, Jesus is fully man and fully God at the same time, the Triune God is transcendent and immanent at the same time, God is love, but He is capable of having a certain hatred for people, He loves everyone to a certain degree (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-36), even the reprobate, yet He predestines them for hell. Neither you nor I can explain away any of these paradoxes,

"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"-Rom. 11:24.

This is a great verse for this discussion, because Paul asks us rhetorically, who has understood God? And moreover, who has been His counselor? Who has presumed to give Him advice?

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"-Daniel 4:35.

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?"-Isaiah 45:9.

Predestination is neither ridiculous nor ungodly. It's clearly Biblical. What you're doing - imposing your humanistic philosophy on the Bible rather than letting God speak for Himself - is ridiculous and ungodly (and not very wise). Paul warns us about this sort of thing:

"I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments."-Col. 2:4

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."-1 Cor. 1:18-25.

I don't pretend to understand any of these mysteries about God, and I doubt you're troubled enough by them to attempt to make Scripture say what you want. Yes, Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, being a substitution for sinners so that sinners could have His perfect righteousness credited to him provided we believe He did this for us, and this sacrifice saves us from an eternity of torment. No, I don't know how this works, but Scripture clearly teaches us.

Face it: it's something you deny because you don't like it. Have you denied the other paradoxical attributes of God? I noticed you didn't respond to God being love and yet having a certain kind of hatred for the reprobate. There are other paradoxical attributes too (I acknowledge that I don't understand them, but I don't have any problem with them).

I understand your predicament! I wouldn't believe in predestination or punishment by eternal torment unless the Bible clearly taught it (and it does). You'd do well to simply take the Bible at its word, rather than trying to pretend that "smoke of their torment" is anything other than a literary device (it appears to be some variant of metonymy or synecdoche). Jesus' words on false teachers who would cause a brother to stumble are terrifying (Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2).

[scottlittlefield17]

How can a police force and government that is as a whole dedicated to protecting the people allow men and woman to be put in little rooms for the rest of there lives and even kill them? I mean isn't the government supposed to help people? How can a God who professes to love men punish them? How can a parent who professes to love their child discipline them? What right does the being that created other, lesser, beings have to meddle in its creations affairs? How crazy it would be for us humans if we where able to create creatures to love us and serve us to dare deal with them if they rebelled against us! Isn't that absolutely preposterous to even think about punishing rogue creations?

[myth-one.com]

How can a police force and government that is as a whole dedicated to protecting the people allow men and woman to be put in little rooms for the rest of there lives and even kill them? I mean isn't the government supposed to help people? How can a God who professes to love men punish them? How can a parent who professes to love their child discipline them? What right does the being that created other, lesser, beings have to meddle in its creations affairs? How crazy it would be for us humans if we where able to create creatures to love us and serve us to dare deal with them if they rebelled against us! Isn't that absolutely preposterous to even think about punishing rogue creations?

So what is your stance on everlasting torture without the possibility of parole?

[SpiritQuickens]

How can a police force and government that is as a whole dedicated to protecting the people allow men and woman to be put in little rooms for the rest of there lives and even kill them? I mean isn't the government supposed to help people? How can a God who professes to love men punish them? How can a parent who professes to love their child discipline them? What right does the being that created other, lesser, beings have to meddle in its creations affairs? How crazy it would be for us humans if we where able to create creatures to love us and serve us to dare deal with them if they rebelled against us! Isn't that absolutely preposterous to even think about punishing rogue creations?

It's a tough teaching. Part of what we have to remember, though, is that God is dedicated to being glorified. He is all about His own glory (Isaiah 43:7), and vessels of wrath serve to demonstrate this glory (Rom. 9:21-23).

[scottlittlefield17]

So what is your stance on everlasting torture without the possibility of parole?

What is your stance on life imprisonment? What some people believe as there whole existence. So in effect they are in prison for what they believe is eternity, their forever.

[scottlittlefield17]

It's a tough teaching. Part of what we have to remember, though, is that God is dedicated to being glorified. He is all about His own glory (Isaiah 43:7), and vessels of wrath serve to demonstrate this glory (Rom. 9:21-23).

You are completely right.

[Metatron]

But God is love! I don't claim to understand this.

I understand your predicament! No one can explain how God is love while planning eternal torment for the majority of mankind. Adding predestination so that no one has any choice in their own fate makes it even more ridiculous and ungodly!

The Bible also clearly teaches punishment by eternal torment.

Then explain this:

To become our Savior, Jesus had to serve the penalty for our sins. If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then you are claiming that Jesus is in hellfire now and for all eternity -- right?

Interestingly enough, the context in which I said "God is love!", had to do with reconciling the fact that "God is love" with the fact that, there is a sense in which God hates certain people. There are plenty of attributes of God that seem to be counterintuitive to us. God is three and one at the same time, Jesus is fully man and fully God at the same time, the Triune God is transcendent and immanent at the same time, God is love, but He is capable of having a certain hatred for people, He loves everyone to a certain degree (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-36), even the reprobate, yet He predestines them for hell. Neither you nor I can explain away any of these paradoxes,

"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"-Rom. 11:24.

This is a great verse for this discussion, because Paul asks us rhetorically, who has understood God? And moreover, who has been His counselor? Who has presumed to give Him advice?

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"-Daniel 4:35.

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?"-Isaiah 45:9.

Predestination is neither ridiculous nor ungodly. It's clearly Biblical. What you're doing - imposing your humanistic philosophy on the Bible rather than letting God speak for Himself - is ridiculous and ungodly (and not very wise). Paul warns us about this sort of thing:

"I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments."-Col. 2:4

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."-1 Cor. 1:18-25.

I don't pretend to understand any of these mysteries about God, and I doubt you're troubled enough by them to attempt to make Scripture say what you want. Yes, Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, being a substitution for sinners so that sinners could have His perfect righteousness credited to him provided we believe He did this for us, and this sacrifice saves us from an eternity of torment. No, I don't know how this works, but Scripture clearly teaches us.

Face it: it's something you deny because you don't like it. Have you denied the other paradoxical attributes of God? I noticed you didn't respond to God being love and yet having a certain kind of hatred for the reprobate. There are other paradoxical attributes too (I acknowledge that I don't understand them, but I don't have any problem with them).

I understand your predicament! I wouldn't believe in predestination or punishment by eternal torment unless the Bible clearly taught it (and it does). You'd do well to simply take the Bible at its word, rather than trying to pretend that "smoke of their torment" is anything other than a literary device (it appears to be some variant of metonymy or synecdoche). Jesus' words on false teachers who would cause a brother to stumble are terrifying (Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2).

When faced with a collection of documents (the Bible) that claims a whole host of logical impossibilities and paradoxes about an alleged deity and which frankly makes said deity appear to be a sadist and a sociopath, wouldn't it be more reasonable to call the validity of this collection into question rather than simply hand waving all of these paradoxes aside and accepting them at face value? Even if one accepts the need for a creator god, there is no reason to accept a being devoid of love and mercy as him.

[JBlack]

So what is your stance on everlasting torture without the possibility of parole?

What is your stance on life imprisonment? What some people believe as there whole existence. So in effect they are in prison for what they believe is eternity, their forever.

Sorry, but life doesn't equal eternity! Even if some perceive it so.

How can a parent who professes to love their child discipline them?

What parent have you ever met that would torture their child for an eternity? If any parent tortured their child, even for a few minutes, for any offense, I think everyone would have a very low opinion of that parent. We would label this person a horrible parent, put them in jail, and send the child to go live elsewhere!

[myth-one.com]

Yes, Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice, being a substitution for sinners so that sinners could have His perfect righteousness credited to him provided we believe He did this for us, and this sacrifice saves us from an eternity of torment. No, I don't know how this works, but Scripture clearly teaches us.

It doesn't work, that's why you cannot understand nor explain it. Neither can Billy Graham nor the Pope. If you do not understand it, how can you teach it to others?

Did our Savior teach nonviolence or not? Turn the other cheek, love your enemies, do good to them that hurt you. Yet, you believe His plan is for untold masses of humanity to suffer indescribable pain for eternity! If this was in His plan, why did He not mention it in detail when He was a human on the earth?

Granted, most of us were taught this erroneous theological garbage from birth. Even so, at some point when you began to reason on your own you should have seen the absurdity. Those teaching the eternal torture punishment will have even more to explain when they meet Jesus face-to-face. Why did they not attempt to discover the truth? Begin now to consider what your explanation will be. Jesus is disappointed that you consider Him to be so mean and vindictive!

Jesus' six-hour crucifixion is equivalent to billions of people being tortured in hellfire eternally? Pathetic.

Once one accepts immortality as a birthright the scriptures are sealed from their understanding. Since you live forever, the wages of sin cannot be death as the Bible states. Thus it must be "interpreted" to be something other than death, and it is forced to be eternal because we shall not surely die.

Ask yourself who planted this seed of immortality in your head. Here's a hint:

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Have a great weekend!