Salvation is from the Jews

[Ben Masada]

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS - John 4:22

In "Salvation is from the Jews," Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman
much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself.
He didn't. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How's that?

Please, don't get startled with the following statement, because I'll
explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have
happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw
how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his
heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the
earth because of man. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man became wicked
again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah? Because Israel
was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel
would be the pledge to guarantee God's promise to Noah that the world
would be saved of another similar catastrophe. I believe that's what
Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation
is from the Jews. That's what keeps the world going.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Brother Ben,

You attempt an honorable thing.

Anglican scholar Bruce Chilton has attempted the same thing with his book "Rabbi Jesus".

But, many just want what they want, and one can't control that. So, you and I can talk.

Jesus was thoroughly Jewish, but that was not a claim he needed to make to anyone. He was concerned with not only conserving the Jewish mission, but renewing it and revitalizing it over against the Greek/Roman cultural and military oppression....because the death of Judaism was indeed unthinkable...for indeed the balance of human survival was in the balance.

The Judeo-Christian ethic has been a thin thread that has kept the western political machines from totally enveloping the planet. Theoretically, I could agree that cultures in Asia, Africa or the precolonial Americas may not have needed the influence of the Jewish-Christian ethic. But, as the western powers decided that it was their manifest destiny to rule the world, the only thing that challenged that consistently was some portion of the Judeo-Christian ethic. Many in the Judeo-Christian tradition have failed...that's why it has been a thin hair. But could we imagine western history without it. It's really unthinkable.

This case has been made on a popular historical level by Thomas Cahill. On a Christian theological level, it has been made by Douglas John Hall. In his book "Lighten Our Darkness: Toward An Indigenous Theology of the Cross", Hall argues that the "Theology of the Cross" ...a theology of servanthood in contrast to a theology of glory...a theology dominance...is a "thin tradition" in western Christianity rooted in Jewish prophetic theology. Hall's book is a scathing critique of North American Christianity (He is Canadian) in which he attacks the smug superiority and notions of entitlement to primacy within North American Christianity.

My rabbi said something stark and provocative once. He said, "I think most Jews just want to be left alone." What he meant by that is of course they don't want to put themselves out there any more than necessary for the anti-Judaism that just won't ever go away. On the other hand, Jews want that "aloneness" in a tension...they have a job to do...to be Jews..even according to the NT text you quoted. So. What a tightrope. To maintain Jewish identity and culture in a world that doesn't want it to exist....but to maintain it for the world. This is the meaning of Marc Chagal's painting of the Jew on the Crucifix.

Jonah, very interesting this post of yours, but I don't agree with you. Too passive and reminds me of the weak masochistic Jew of the Holocaust. Our new generation which has witnessed the rebirth of Israel, is a generation of a strong and proud Jew, who no longer should lower his eyes and speak, "Yes sir!" We have a powerful mind, and this light, as Jesus said to the Jews in his Sermon of the Mount, must shine before men so that they may see what we are able of, and give praise to our Heavenly Father. The time is gone to keep our light under the bushel basket. We must set it on a stand where it gives light to all in the house. (Mat. 5:14-16)

[Ben Masada]

The moderator is correct. What has been going on, in my view, is a concerted notion that:

1. Jews don't have a right to post on the forum.
2. Then, if Jews allude to anti-Judaism or the Holocaust, they are then accused of being paranoid...of having "personal issues" that compel them to insert themselves where they don't belong, etc.

I think what really bothers Jews is when Christians refuse to be self-critical and refuse to come to some productive conclusion about the Judaism that is in Christianity. There ought to be some re-judaizing of Christianity just on account of the Holocaust.

Salvation IS from the Jews.

That doesn't mean that Jews have primacy. It means there is a parent-child relationship, or at least a big brother sibling relationship. And relationship comes with obligation.

So. Where is the salvation work today? We are all snagged up.

Jews have been bogged down with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Can you imagine what life would be like, if we actually solved that?

Christians have been bogged down arguing about gay people for at least 20 years. To what end? The Episcopal and ELCA churches are going to rip themselves to utter shreds over gay marriage and gay clergy. What?

I like David Saperstein who runs the Reform Jewish social action agency in D.C. He tells Jews in the pew...you can't put all your eggs in the Defend Israel basket. The world is in big trouble. We've got to pay the rent. If we don't act on Darfur, and all such calamities, then there's no moral reason for us to be defending Israel. And of course that includes peace with the Palestinians.

Shalom is salvation. How much shalom are we getting done today? The heroes are the workers in Jewish and Christian social service orgs...and of course the same in other religions.

Shalom is work. Salvation is work. That's the Jewish insight that is objected to by those who want what Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace"...don't have to do anything.

The "works" issue is at the center. Salvation is of the Jews is just another way of saying that Israel got the message that God wants to work with us...even when we don't want to...thus, Jacob/Israel found himself wrestling with God.

Jonah would rather be sunning himself on the beach in Joppa than in the belly of a big ol fish....but, there's work to be done.

Another superb post. Call hakavod Jonah. If I had to address all your points, I would need two posts to write. Therefore, just one. The one about being salvation from the Jews. If Christians read their Bible a little more frequently, they would learn that the expression is not mine but Jesus' in John 4:22, when he said that salvation is from the Jews. I am forwarding just the way I understand was in Jesus' mind.

They might want to individualize and rewrite the text by saying that salvation is "from one among the Jews." But that's not what Jesus said. Besides, I would not find anything in the Scriptures to back up that view. On the other hand, the collective salvation is backed up by Jeremiah in 31:35,36.

[TXatheist]

Moderator Warning

The new light over this thread is that Jeremiah understood it to be as it is, when he prophesied that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will cease functioning properly. We all know that if this ever happens, universal catastrophes will be the order of the day. It could be the end of Mankind just as it happened to the Dinosaurs. (Jer. 31:35,36)

This has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read since posting on this forum. Are you actually suggesting that, without the existence of Jews, the entire natural order would fall into chaos? Are you serious???

What Really Sad He Believe That Crap He Posting . And He Call Other Anti -Semitic LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

This post is both a personal attack, and unproductive. You may feel the position being taken is ridiculous, and that is fine, but address the substance of why you think it is ridiculous without the name-calling and pejorative sarcasm.

If to quote a Prophet in a religious forum is a personal attack and unproductive, no one can quote Galatians 4:21-31, because it is Antisemitism.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. micatala was reprimanding Kadmon for his "crap" comment, not you, Ben.

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

Two things. First, if you have a question or challenge to a moderator action, it must be done by Private Message, not within the thread. Please consulte the rules.

Claiming you were just offering tit for tat is not justified.

Second, Seijun's comment in the previous post is correct. My other post was directed at Kadmon, not you.

Moderator Warning

.... every time Jesus spoke theologically with reference to Mankind, he did on behalf of the collective. The Jewish People. That's perfectly normal to do so.

Speaking to the people in that time and place, it was a normal thing to do. But not today. And, while Jesus may have said things considered to be a theological reference to Mankind by today's standards, I don't see that as being his intention, if indeed that was his intention, at the time.

IMO, the things said and done by Jesus have been theologized to the worst extreme by this religious group or that, each one thinking that sacred Scripture means this, while another insists it means that. One religious group claims those things should be interpreted according to their theology, while another counterclaims with, "No, it must be interpreted according to our theology."

Do you really think when you write? Look at what you said above: "No, it must be interpreted according to our theologyl." Why? Do you know whom you are talking about? A Jew; a religious Jew. And do you know whom you are taking with? A Jew, a religious Jew. Why has Jesus, a religious Jew, to be interpreted according to the theology of a Gentile and not the theology of a Jew? How about if you ponder on the nonsense that you have just pronounced? I'll let you now off the hook so that you can think in freedom.

Ben:

There is no need to label other posts as "nonsense" and suggest they are writing without thinking. This is a form of personal attack and not conducive to civil debate.

That's exactly how I am labeled here by almost everyone. Why should I turn the other cheek? The time for the masochistic Jew of the Holocaust is long past. I never start, but once I am treated with disdain, I understand that so people here like to be treated.

[Ben Masada]

Moderator Warning

The new light over this thread is that Jeremiah understood it to be as it is, when he prophesied that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will cease functioning properly. We all know that if this ever happens, universal catastrophes will be the order of the day. It could be the end of Mankind just as it happened to the Dinosaurs. (Jer. 31:35,36)

This has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read since posting on this forum. Are you actually suggesting that, without the existence of Jews, the entire natural order would fall into chaos? Are you serious???

What Really Sad He Believe That Crap He Posting . And He Call Other Anti -Semitic LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

This post is both a personal attack, and unproductive. You may feel the position being taken is ridiculous, and that is fine, but address the substance of why you think it is ridiculous without the name-calling and pejorative sarcasm.

If to quote a Prophet in a religious forum is a personal attack and unproductive, no one can quote Galatians 4:21-31, because it is Antisemitism.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. micatala was reprimanding Kadmon for his "crap" comment, not you, Ben.

Yes Seijun, you are right. I understand it now. I apologize to the Moderator.

[Cathar1950]

If he existed at all,

You will see on the day of Judgment if He existed..

That post is called a one-liner.
Not only will you see if he existed but if all the stuff sad about him or the claims made about him are true. Of course maybe not, maybe we will never know.
Then we have to ask which Jesus.
Any way your post was not worth posting.

[Jonah]

Ben,

On the passive issue, I see your point. My rabbi is a strong Israel guy, but his congregation is very "American". There is some critique in his commentary.

[Kadmon]

Moderator Warning

The new light over this thread is that Jeremiah understood it to be as it is, when he prophesied that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will cease functioning properly. We all know that if this ever happens, universal catastrophes will be the order of the day. It could be the end of Mankind just as it happened to the Dinosaurs. (Jer. 31:35,36)

This has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read since posting on this forum. Are you actually suggesting that, without the existence of Jews, the entire natural order would fall into chaos? Are you serious???

What Really Sad He Believe That Crap He Posting . And He Call Other Anti -Semitic LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

This post is both a personal attack, and unproductive. You may feel the position being taken is ridiculous, and that is fine, but address the substance of why you think it is ridiculous without the name-calling and pejorative sarcasm.

If to quote a Prophet in a religious forum is a personal attack and unproductive, no one can quote Galatians 4:21-31, because it is Antisemitism.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. micatala was reprimanding Kadmon for his "crap" comment, not you, Ben.

Now That I See [ Ben Masada ] Is Under Your Protection I See Why He Says The Things He Do .

[TXatheist]

Moderator Warning

The new light over this thread is that Jeremiah understood it to be as it is, when he prophesied that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will cease functioning properly. We all know that if this ever happens, universal catastrophes will be the order of the day. It could be the end of Mankind just as it happened to the Dinosaurs. (Jer. 31:35,36)

This has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read since posting on this forum. Are you actually suggesting that, without the existence of Jews, the entire natural order would fall into chaos? Are you serious???

What Really Sad He Believe That Crap He Posting . And He Call Other Anti -Semitic LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

This post is both a personal attack, and unproductive. You may feel the position being taken is ridiculous, and that is fine, but address the substance of why you think it is ridiculous without the name-calling and pejorative sarcasm.

If to quote a Prophet in a religious forum is a personal attack and unproductive, no one can quote Galatians 4:21-31, because it is Antisemitism.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. micatala was reprimanding Kadmon for his "crap" comment, not you, Ben.

Now That I See [ Ben Masada ] Is Under Your Protection I See Why He Says The Things He Do .

Huh? I don't get it...

[Cathar1950]

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS - John 4:22

In "Salvation is from the Jews," Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman
much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself.
He didn't. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How's that?

Please, don't get startled with the following statement, because I'll
explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have
happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw
how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his
heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the
earth because of man. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man became wicked
again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah? Because Israel
was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel
would be the pledge to guarantee God's promise to Noah that the world
would be saved of another similar catastrophe. I believe that's what
Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation
is from the Jews. That's what keeps the world going.

Ben

You are tossing out a lot of assumptions and you really never make a clear point.
I suspect you are talking about some sort of collective salvation rather then the emphasis on individual salvation while negating salvation through Jesus. While I have some affinity to your cause and tend to see it as a typical Jewish response to Pauline Christianity just for starters.
I also see that you seem to be taking the myths almost literally while reshaping the interpretation. I find it hard to swallow the idea that if Jews had been around before the flood there would have been no flood. What kind of nonsense is this? If the Jews had been around before the flood they would be dead as the would have just been another group that perished. But it is a myth. To make some case for the Jews using the flood is rather silly.
God made a promise to humanity at least according to the myth and it doesn't seem dependent upon their wickedness or what ever. I imagine the myth was borrowed from an even older myth where the rainbow was the bow of the gods set down as the gods no longer would war with humans. I doubt the story of Jesus never happened and was the invention of the author. It represents the thoughts of later believers.