Convinced or Converted?

[Eph]

I was reading onceconvinced poll and topic about whether or not people believe he was a true Christian. I must admit, his story is intriguing and seems sincere enough. Someone gave a talk on this subject recently in our church and it made me think of onceconvinced. I could have posted this in his thread, but I think it warrants its own debate/discussion.

Is there a difference between being convinced and being converted?

I believe that being convinced indicates that one has allowed their mind to accept a doctrine or belief.

I would also suggest that being "converted" is something akin to being spiritually reborn, like Jesus pointed out to Nicodemus in the New Testament where he says:

"...unless a man is born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kindom of heaven".

Being converted, in my opinion, is a combination of being convinced in one's mind AND heart that something is true. It would be manifest in how he thinks and how he acts. I would also take it one step further, that he has the ability to make and keep promises with God.

[cnorman18]

Is there a difference between being convinced and being converted?

I believe that being convinced indicates that one has allowed their mind to accept a doctrine or belief.

I would also suggest that being "converted" is something akin to being spiritually reborn, like Jesus pointed out to Nicodemus in the New Testament where he says:

"...unless a man is born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kindom of heaven".

Being converted, in my opinion, is a combination of being convinced in one's mind AND heart that something is true. It would be manifest in how he thinks and how he acts. I would also take it one step further, that he has the ability to make and keep promises with God.

Well, as often happens, I'm here to give a third alternative, though not in the usual way this time.

This formulation doesn't work for me. My own faith is almost entirely cognitive, intellect-based. I always had intellectual reservations about the Christian faith, and when I discovered Judaism, I was surprised and gratified to find that there was a religion that both matched my own lifelong convictions and, to me, seemed self-consistent and made intellectual sense.

I never had much of sn emotional connection with or commitment to Christianity to begin with, and I have no great emotional ties to Judaism now; such are beyond my capabilities. As I have mentioned before, I have a mild case of Asperger's Syndrome, which is an autistic-spectrum disorder, and I am oddly and obscurely impaired where emotions are concerned. Emotional connections with people are very rare in my life, and emotional connections with groups or institutions are entirely nonexistent. I live in my head for the most part, and my heart's involvement in anything is generally nil. Even so, I am a very warm and compassionate person, though my empathy with others is more cognitive than emotional.

Therefore, talking to me about a "heart" connection with religion is rather like talking about sunsets to a blind man. In terms of your proposed alternatives, "convinced" is all I can ever be; but I feel well and truly "converted" for all that.

One of my core convictions is that no one - no one - can ever really know what it is like inside the head and behind the eyes of another. Beliefs, perceptions and feelings that look and sound identical when expressed in words may subjectively be very different indeed - and none of us will or can ever know for sure.

In my humble opinion, Judaism takes this into account and depends on no verbal or language-based doctrines, creeds, or otherwise set and prescribed beliefs, and the emotional content of the faith is more connected with the culture and the traditions than with the tenets of the faith. Actions are both more objective and less ambiguous than either verbally expressed thoughts or feelings, and those are the focus of our religion.

[Vanguard]

I was reading onceconvinced poll and topic about whether or not people believe he was a true Christian. I must admit, his story is intriguing and seems sincere enough. Someone gave a talk on this subject recently in our church and it made me think of onceconvinced. I could have posted this in his thread, but I think it warrants its own debate/discussion.

Is there a difference between being convinced and being converted?

I believe that being convinced indicates that one has allowed their mind to accept a doctrine or belief.

I would also suggest that being "converted" is something akin to being spiritually reborn, like Jesus pointed out to Nicodemus in the New Testament where he says:

"...unless a man is born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kindom of heaven".

Being converted, in my opinion, is a combination of being convinced in one's mind AND heart that something is true. It would be manifest in how he thinks and how he acts. I would also take it one step further, that he has the ability to make and keep promises with God.

I struggle with seeing the difference as you have outlined. If I am convinced of the teachings of a particular Christian gospel than how can I not act accordingly (i.e., your example of how conversion is manifest)? Part of the Christian Gospel includes so much about serving, worship, charity, sacrifice, and the like. How could one convinced of these things not be compelled to act?

[OnceConvinced]

Being converted, in my opinion, is a combination of being convinced in one's mind AND heart that something is true. It would be manifest in how he thinks and how he acts. I would also take it one step further, that he has the ability to make and keep promises with God.

I'd agree with this.

For me, I converted at a very young age, probably more out of being influenced by adults in my life. ie my parents wanting me to give my life to Christ and Sunday school teachers trying to convince me to do it. I was convinced because that was what I was taught as fact. There was no questioning if it was true or not, because no one gave me any other options. I trusted my parents, I trusted my teachers. Why would they lie to me?

Of course as I became older, I became more and more convinced it was real. A few answered prayers here and there, warm fuzzy feelings in church. Spiritual highs, going into ministries and feeling blessed because of it. Lots of great things happening, making me feel as though God was on my side. Making me believe the bible was real. Convinced? You better believe it.

[Eph]

I struggle with seeing the difference as you have outlined. If I am convinced of the teachings of a particular Christian gospel than how can I not act accordingly (i.e., your example of how conversion is manifest)? Part of the Christian Gospel includes so much about serving, worship, charity, sacrifice, and the like. How could one convinced of these things not be compelled to act?

For example, you've heard the phrase "Sunday Christians" or the comment "I attend church on Christmas and Easter". Survey's suggest that most people believe in God and most believe in the teachings in their church. However, many of these same people do not strictly follow the doctrines of their church, or even attend their church regularly. I think most (not all) of these people fall into the category of convinced, but not truly converted. Some people believe, but are unwilling to completely "submit" themselves to the teachings of their religion, thus, showing fear or doubt, essentially a lack of faith. No doubt, some teachings are more important than others.

Remember the rich man in Mark Chapter 10? He claimed to be living all the commandments. But he could not give up his wealth, thus showing a lack of true conversion. A hard lesson, no doubt.

Ultimately the matter is between the individual and their God, which is why I do not make judgement on onceconvinced.

[OnceConvinced]

I think if someone is convinced then they're going to do what ever it takes to please God. I think if the Sunday variety of Christian were truly convinced they'd be doing more than just attending church on Sundays or special ocassions.

[Vanguard]

I struggle with seeing the difference as you have outlined. If I am convinced of the teachings of a particular Christian gospel than how can I not act accordingly (i.e., your example of how conversion is manifest)? Part of the Christian Gospel includes so much about serving, worship, charity, sacrifice, and the like. How could one convinced of these things not be compelled to act?

For example, you've heard the phrase "Sunday Christians" or the comment "I attend church on Christmas and Easter". Survey's suggest that most people believe in God and most believe in the teachings in their church. However, many of these same people do not strictly follow the doctrines of their church, or even attend their church regularly. I think most (not all) of these people fall into the category of convinced, but not truly converted. Some people believe, but are unwilling to completely "submit" themselves to the teachings of their religion, thus, showing fear or doubt, essentially a lack of faith. No doubt, some teachings are more important than others.

Remember the rich man in Mark Chapter 10? He claimed to be living all the commandments. But he could not give up his wealth, thus showing a lack of true conversion. A hard lesson, no doubt.

Ultimately the matter is between the individual and their God, which is why I do not make judgement on onceconvinced.

At this juncture it is probably just semantics as I do agree with what I believe is the essense of your point (i.e., there are many who are not impassioned to live closer to a standard they may intellectually accept, hence the term "Sunday Christian).

You are correct also in refraining from any judgement of another. We should remember each is given his own capacity in this life. One man's "conviction" so to speak may look like another's "conversion" and vice-versa. In other words, I believe I am converted though I hesitate to show you the skeletons in my closet.
_________________________________________

I think if someone is convinced then they're going to do what ever it takes to please God. I think if the Sunday variety of Christian were truly convinced they'd be doing more than just attending church on Sundays or special ocassions.

While "more conviction" may well lead to "better action" it is not the case that a "totally convinced" individual (if there even is such a thing) will lead a "perfect life".

[catalyst]

First off, I would just like to say this. I have just finished reading through the Onceconvinced thread you are referring to and I truly applaud Onceconvinced as to their coming to their place in life now. I can appreciate the furrowed-brow that woudl have been on their face on many occasions, but I can also appreciate the peace and release they are experiencing in their life now!

As to convinced vs convert.

I was not raised "in fath" as such. My father was born a Jew (as my grandmother was) and my mother was a typical "event" church attender(christmas and easter, funerals and christenings and weddings). Sure, we did the Sunday School "thing", where no one really listened to much more than learning the words(and obligatory actions to go with the song) of "the wise man built his house upon the rocks". Nothing was ever explained, no one asked FOR explanation as we knew that after the "blurb", we would get munchie stuff and get to play games. As such I cannot comment from personal experience, how it is to be RAISED as a christian, as Onceconvinced has.

However, to be raised as a christian, or other religious path, I just take it as pretty much just believing what your parents tell you to be "truth". We are always told to respect our "elders" and with that comes THEIR preconceived ideas of what is "right" or "wrong, what is "truth" vs what is not. Just as christians parents in westernised nations are more prone to promote jesus and the christian bible as "truth", parents in Indonesia(eg purposes) would be professing the awe of Muhammad as "truth" as well.

That being the case, I don't even think that Onceconvinced actually needed convincing, but rather, it was all, through theirs parents teaching, is all they had ever "known", hence..taking it for granted it is just how it is because that is what the parents told them.

Conversion therefore in my mind is the same thing. Still a reliance on some authority figure telling us what to believe, because it is written in a book and they say it is "so".

[OnceConvinced]

That being the case, I don't even think that Onceconvinced actually needed convincing, but rather, it was all, through theirs parents teaching, is all they had ever "known", hence..taking it for granted it is just how it is because that is what the parents told them.

Exactly. It's like a lot of things you learn growing up as a child. You just accept things as fact because that is what you were taught. I sometimes say that I was a Christian by default. But even so there was a time when I was 16 where I really "took the bull by the horns" so to speak and started serving the lord because of my love for him and my desire to serve him. If anyone had tried to tell me that I was deluded I wouldn't have taken them seriously. I was just so "convinced" Christ was real in my life.

Conversion therefore in my mind is the same thing. Still a reliance on some authority figure telling us what to believe, because it is written in a book and they say it is "so".

This is also true. Most people come to Christ because they have heard the message and it has somehow convinced them that it's true. So they convert. Contrary to what some Christians believe it's not a matter of choosing to believe, it's a matter of something about the message touching them in some way, resulting in them becoming convinced it's real. At first they take what they have learnt at face value. But then, if they mature, they begin to "take the bull by the horns" and run with it, which results in them being able to learn for themselves rather than having to rely on other people's interpretations.