Was I a true Christian?

[OnceConvinced]

I was brought up in a Christian home, having been taught Christianity and its virtues from birth. I believed it by default. My parents were genuine Christians, believing it was their job to teach me the ways of the lord. They lived the Christian life. One of the things I have always respected them for was that they way they were at Church was no different to the way they were at home. I saw them as good Christian role models and I believe that is part of the reason why I followed in their footsteps.

I officially became born again at the age of 7. I always tried hard to emulate Jesus, following his teachings, taking his advice. At the age of 16 I went into ministry for the first time, as a leader at kids camps. My church pastor recommended me and I was being called “Uncle Richard” by kids only 6 years younger than me. This was definitely not a pride thing. I felt privileged to be able to do something for God. I always welcomed opportunities to do things for God.

My life as a Christian, was simple. I believed Jesus to be the son of God. I had absolute faith that Jesus was who he said he was. I strived to be like him. I prayed regularly, read my bible and studied. I believed the bible to be the infallible word of God. I regularly put my life right with him, asking for forgiveness when I felt I needed to. I attended church most Sundays, and often evenings. I attended cell groups. I helped people when I could who needed it.

When I left home, I continued to follow Christ, eager to be involved in ministry, eager to worship and praise him. I was put in leadership roles, trusted and respected. But please don’t think I am trying to blow my own trumpet. I am just telling you this because I want you to see that there were many people who believed me to be a true Christian. Even non-Christians did not question my integrity. – apart from one when I was about 19 who criticized me for swearing occasionally, telling a few crude jokes and for once wearing a shirt with dragons on it.

I made no secrets of the fact I was a Christian. I loved to talk about the lord. I always attempted to set an example.

I was never a fan of religion. I never approved of churches like the catholic church which focused on a lot of religious ritual. I chose to go to churches where religion was generally looked down upon. I believed I had a “relationship with God”.

I have always strived to better myself. To be more like Christ.

Of course a couple of years ago, I left the faith (that’s another story)

There are many Christians I have come across on-line, including some here, who although they know little (or nothing at all) of my background, insist I was never a true Christian – or insinuate it. Some are quite judgemental about it. Some try to be polite about it. I know I shouldn’t let it bother me, But I served the lord genuinely for over 30 years. I know I did what was expect of me as a Christian. I put my heart and soul into it. I wasn’t perfect by any means, but no Christian is.

So my questions:

Based on what I’ve told you here…

Was I a true Christian? If not, why not? Where do you think I went wrong?'

BTW, I'm happy to elaborate on any issues if you wish to ask questions.

[drs]

you said you were let down by church prophecies.

Not just church prophecies. Also bible prophecies. But by church prophecies I mean the standard ones like "God is about to do a great thing", "Revival is about to come", those sort of things.


what bible prophecices ?

I don't want to ask to many things at one time?

Fine so far. I'm happy to answer questions just as long as people don't presume too much. The last Christian I talked with here about my experiences, tried to claim I had become an ex-Christian due to hardships. However I had never even insinuated anything like that in my words. It was an assumption based on a stereotypical view of ex-Christians.[/quote]


I read your oppening post again and I got down a couple of years ago I left the faith thats another story.

I would ask you now what happened

I took these from your other post

On top of that I was not seeing God doing the things he was saying he
would do in the churches I belonged too. Prophecies coming forth from
church leaders, evangelists etc were amounting to nothing.


What did GOD say he would do?


One of the big factors I believe is the Internet. For the first time I
was coming up against people with opposing views and they were making
very valid points. It opened my eyes quite a bit.

Oppened your eyes to what?


Suddenly, things were being pointed out to me that no pastor had ever
preached about in a sermon. No studies had ever come my way about those
things. They were things that were never discussed in cell groups etc.
They were things most Christians over looked and things I had never
noticed.


What things?




The last time I went to church as a Christian I sat there incredulously
as a church member stood up in front of the church talking about the
leadership and their trip around the region to pray over the area. I had
never realised before just how absurd the things they were coming up
with were. They wanted so badly to believe that God was guiding them
during that trip that they saw every little thing they came across as a
sign and they were coming up with the most ridiculous stuff. And it was
then that what I was hearing was typical of Christians. It?s just that
before I went right along with it and at times even had similar
testimonies. This was typical Christianity I was seeing. I think that
day was the day I truly decided my heart was no longer in it.



So they things they were praying were not in accordance with the will of GOD in scripture.





Besides the tougne speaking Which I believe their is the true gift of worldly spoken languages and the false gift that no one can understand.


I have heard in the pentecostal church teach things like this.

1) everyone will be healed from sickness
2) they pray to stop wars and violence
3) they pray binding Satan and demons
4) they believe praying in these unknown sounds is communicating with GOD and it is acctivating his power to answer prayers
5) I watched a fasle prophit come in and tell them things that are not in scripture
and get new people to repeat strange tougnes that he was saying so they could recieve the HOLY SPIRIT
6) he even told them the more money they give him GOD will bless them for it ofcourse he could not give reciets because he was taking the money out of country


and there is more but my point being these are not true biblical teachings

[OnceConvinced]

what bible prophecices ?

How about this one for a start?

John 14:12-14
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

or this one:

Matthew 17:20
Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

or this one maybe:

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

and this:

Matthew 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

and this:

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

(The above are gaurantees)

On top of that I was not seeing God doing the things he was saying he
would do in the churches I belonged too. Prophecies coming forth from
church leaders, evangelists etc were amounting to nothing.

What did GOD say he would do?

Pretty much what I said earlier. General prophecies, the type you hear in every church you go to. Like how the church is going to do mighty things for God in the city. How revival is going to occur. Stuff like that. I hear those sort of prophecies all the time and after a while I started to become cynical whenever I heard them. Revival is always on the doorstep it seems, but it never quite gets there, does it?

One of the big factors I believe is the Internet. For the first time I
was coming up against people with opposing views and they were making
very valid points. It opened my eyes quite a bit.

Oppened your eyes to what?

A lot of facts, things that I had never thought about, things that showed the bible to be wrong. I don't want to get into all those things as there are many many things. A lot of those things get discussed in great detail here on this site and very few Christians are able to come up with convincing arguments against those things.

Suddenly, things were being pointed out to me that no pastor had ever
preached about in a sermon. No studies had ever come my way about those
things. They were things that were never discussed in cell groups etc.
They were things most Christians over looked and things I had never
noticed.

What things?

I don't really want to have to get into a whole list of things on this thread. But certain bible atrocities including horrible things God did and horrible rules he made in the OT come to mind.

The last time I went to church as a Christian I sat there incredulously
as a church member stood up in front of the church talking about the
leadership and their trip around the region to pray over the area. I had
never realised before just how absurd the things they were coming up
with were. They wanted so badly to believe that God was guiding them
during that trip that they saw every little thing they came across as a
sign and they were coming up with the most ridiculous stuff. And it was
then that what I was hearing was typical of Christians. It?s just that
before I went right along with it and at times even had similar
testimonies. This was typical Christianity I was seeing. I think that
day was the day I truly decided my heart was no longer in it.

So they things they were praying were not in accordance with the will of GOD in scripture.

What is God's will is often subjective and often depends on how you interpret scripture. It was all just fantasy, wishful thinking, delusion. People thinking that they were warriors for Christ, doing their bit to get rid of Satan's evil over the city. Typical Christian stuff really. It just became obvious to me, that it was nothing but delusion.

I have heard in the pentecostal church teach things like this.

I understand that pentecostal churches can go to extremes. I have seen it. There are a lot of deluded people in them, but they same sort of stuff goes on in any church, it's just that it seems to be more extreme in pentecostal churches. I have seen what extreme stuff can do to a church. I saw a really great church crumble because of stupidity on the part of the church leadership, particularly the pastor himself. That was back when I was a teenager, so I am not ignorant of that sort of thing. The apostolic church I was in from 1994 to a few years ago never went to those extremes. BTW it was not the church I went to that last time. That was a completely different church.

1) everyone will be healed from sickness

I have not come across one that insists this, but they do have scripture to back them up. See the ones I quoted earlier. Gaurantees on Christ's part there.

2) they pray to stop wars and violence

Christians believe that prayer accomplishes many many things. Personally I don't see any trouble with people praying for this sort of thing. It's better than praying for nice weather or for God to help you excel at sports.

3) they pray binding Satan and demons

I've seen a lot of this sort of thing in the 80s in particular and found it to pretty much ineffective. If it has any benefit, it's simply a placebo effect. Mind over matter. I never saw much of this after the 80s.

4) they believe praying in these unknown sounds is communicating with GOD and it is acctivating his power to answer prayers

I'm not sure what you mean there.

5) I watched a fasle prophit come in and tell them things that are not in scripture
and get new people to repeat strange tougnes that he was saying so they could recieve the HOLY SPIRIT

That sounds bizarre.

6) he even told them the more money they give him GOD will bless them for it ofcourse he could not give reciets because he was taking the money out of country

Sounds like a shyster. But there are many people like that around and they aren't just in pentecostal churches.

and there is more but my point being these are not true biblical teachings

What is true biblical teaching is often subjective. I doubt you'll ever find a church where you'll agree with everything the leadership preaches. There will always be different views on what the bible is saying on virtually any topic. The holy spirit does not gaurantee unity and certainly doesn't gaurantee you'll agree on the meaning of scripture. The thing is every denomination believes they follow the bible. Ever denomination believes they are the one people should be involved in. To say that other denominations are "not true Christians" is judgemental and quite arrogant really. There is no way any Christian can know they have "real" understanding of scripture.

[drs]

what bible prophecices ?

How about this one for a start?

John 14 (New King James Version)
The Answered Prayer
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


You will follow GOD and do his works and greater works.

Through the HOLY SPIRIT the disciples of CHRIST will spread the word throughout the world and many will hear and believe and have salvation in LORD JESUS CHRIST.(this will be the greater work to reach all the world with the truth)


CHRIST'S works also included his persecution, his suffering and his death, to do the will of his FATHER above all.

This will be our example.

GOD will grant his disciples whatever they need to accomplish his will.



or this one:

Matthew 17:20
Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

This is a teaching on true faith.


Lets look at GOD'S example prayer.


verse 10 your will be done.

verse 11 grant us this day our daily bread.
this is a prayer for spiritual needs above all

your will be done, LORD grant us this day what we need to serve you.



All prayer has to be in accordance with the will of GOD

and this is true ,nothing will be imposssible for you as long as what you are praying and doing is according to the will of GOD

Matthew 6 (New King James Version)

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]




or this one maybe:

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.


See post #80 & #84 in why would GOD be the author of confusion


and this:

Matthew 7 (New King James Version)
Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! .

This is all true but GOD does not always give people what they think they need.

GOD gives those who love him exaxtly what they need according to his will.


and this:

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.


verse 50 whoever does the will of my FATHER in Heaven is my brother ,sister ,mother


Matthew 12 (New King James Version)
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?� 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.�

(The above are gaurantees)

Yes I agree in accordance to the will of GOD always.



Now lets look at what GOD has promised those who follow him


verse 17 delivered up and scourged

verse 22 hated by all for my names sake

verse 23 persecuted from place to place


Persecutions Are Coming
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,[d] how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.



persecution and hatred by those of the world.



John 15 (New King James Version)
The World’s Hatred
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’[c]





verse 22 stengthening the souls to continue in faith

we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom


Acts 14 (New King James Version)
Strengthening the Converts
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.�




verse 19 serving the LORD with humility, many tears and trials.

verse 22 not knowing what will happen to me

verse 23 the HOLY SPIRIT testifies chains and tribulations await me


Acts 20 (New King James Version)
19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.



verse 3 Glory in tribulation knowing it produces perseverance, character and hope


Romans 5
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.




verse 35 who shall separate us from the love of CHRIST?

verse 36 for your sake we are killed all day long
we are acounted as sheep to the slaughter.


God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.�[c]

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



verse 17 it is better if it is the will of GOD to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

1 Peter 3 (New King James Version)


Suffering for Right and Wrong

13 And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.�[c] 15 But sanctify the Lord God[d] in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.



And here is your reward for faithfull enduring service to CHRIST



Matthew 5 (New King James Version)

Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

On top of that I was not seeing God doing the things he was saying he
would do in the churches I belonged too. Prophecies coming forth from
church leaders, evangelists etc were amounting to nothing.

What did GOD say he would do?

Pretty much what I said earlier. General prophecies, the type you hear in every church you go to. Like how the church is going to do mighty things for God in the city. How revival is going to occur. Stuff like that. I hear those sort of prophecies all the time and after a while I started to become cynical whenever I heard them. Revival is always on the doorstep it seems, but it never quite gets there, does it?


Churches should not be prophecising outside of scripture

Here is what they should be prophecising

verse 4 decevers

verse 5 false Christs

verse 6 wars must come

verse 7 nation against nation, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.

verse 8 only the begining of sorrows

verse 9 tribulation, hatred and death for those who truly follow CHRIST

verse 10 many will be offended by the truth

verse 11 more false prophits will rise up and deceve many

verse 12 lawlessness and the love of many will grow cold

verse 13 but he who endures to the end will be saved



The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?�
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

One of the big factors I believe is the Internet. For the first time I
was coming up against people with opposing views and they were making
very valid points. It opened my eyes quite a bit.

Oppened your eyes to what?

A lot of facts, things that I had never thought about, things that showed the bible to be wrong. I don't want to get into all those things as there are many many things. A lot of those things get discussed in great detail here on this site and very few Christians are able to come up with convincing arguments against those things.

Suddenly, things were being pointed out to me that no pastor had ever
preached about in a sermon. No studies had ever come my way about those
things. They were things that were never discussed in cell groups etc.
They were things most Christians over looked and things I had never
noticed.

Sorry nothing to respond too

What things?

I don't really want to have to get into a whole list of things on this thread. But certain bible atrocities including horrible things God did and horrible rules he made in the OT come to mind.

I can find notthing horrible that GOD did

The last time I went to church as a Christian I sat there incredulously
as a church member stood up in front of the church talking about the
leadership and their trip around the region to pray over the area. I had
never realised before just how absurd the things they were coming up
with were. They wanted so badly to believe that God was guiding them
during that trip that they saw every little thing they came across as a
sign and they were coming up with the most ridiculous stuff. And it was
then that what I was hearing was typical of Christians. It?s just that
before I went right along with it and at times even had similar
testimonies. This was typical Christianity I was seeing. I think that
day was the day I truly decided my heart was no longer in it.

So they things they were praying were not in accordance with the will of GOD in scripture

What is God's will is often subjective and often depends on how you interpret scripture. It was all just fantasy, wishful thinking, delusion. People thinking that they were warriors for Christ, doing their bit to get rid of Satan's evil over the city. Typical Christian stuff really. It just became obvious to me, that it was nothing but delusion.

people praying to get rid of evil over the city and world are praying agaist GOD's word in the scipture as we have just seen in the above passage

GOD has already told us these things are going to happen.

1) everyone will be healed from sickness

I have not come across one that insists this, but they do have scripture to back them up. See the ones I quoted earlier. Gaurantees on Christ's part there.

There are no gaurntees that if you become a disciple of CHRIST you will be healed physically.

We have seen above what GOD has said will happen to those who follow him.

2) they pray to stop wars and violence

Christians believe that prayer accomplishes many many things. Personally I don't see any trouble with people praying for this sort of thing. It's better than praying for nice weather or for God to help you excel at sports.


But again GOD'S prophecy has fortold wars and violence so why pray against it.

Lets look at what LORD JESUS prayed for he is our example.

verse 9 I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given me.

verse 15 LORD JESUS prays that those that are his be kept from the evil one

verse 17 sanctify them by your truth

verse 20 He prays for all who will believe in him through his word

This is the only prayer for the world to believe that LORD JESUS was sent and the FATHER has loved those who were given to CHRIST.

verse 23 and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.�

3) they pray binding Satan and demons

I've seen a lot of this sort of thing in the 80s in particular and found it to pretty much ineffective. If it has any benefit, it's simply a placebo effect. Mind over matter. I never saw much of this after the 80s.

You can pray to GOD for him to cast a demon out of someone but not binding evil over here stopping demonic activity eveywhere.

4) they believe praying in these unknown sounds is communicating with GOD and it is acctivating his power to answer prayers

I'm not sure what you mean there.

post #80 & #84 in why would GOD be the author of confusion

and there is more but my point being these are not true biblical teachings

What is true biblical teaching is often subjective. I doubt you'll ever find a church where you'll agree with everything the leadership preaches. There will always be different views on what the bible is saying on virtually any topic. The holy spirit does not gaurantee unity and certainly doesn't gaurantee you'll agree on the meaning of scripture. The thing is every denomination believes they follow the bible. Ever denomination believes they are the one people should be involved in. To say that other denominations are "not true Christians" is judgemental and quite arrogant really. There is no way any Christian can know they have "real" understanding of scripture.

Ofcourse a disciple of CHRIST can know the meaning of truth in the scripture

We just looked at what CHRIST prayed sanctify them by your truth

verse 26 THE HOLY SPIRIT will teach you all things

The Gift of His Peace John 14 (New King James Version)
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

To say otherwise is denying the power of THE HOLY SPIRIT



And why do you need to be part of a denomination?

Be part of the body of CHRIST that worship GOD in SPIRIT and truth

John 4 (New King James Version)


23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.�

[OnceConvinced]

John 14 (New King James Version)
The Answered Prayer
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

You will follow GOD and do his works and greater works.

Through the HOLY SPIRIT the disciples of CHRIST will spread the word throughout the world and many will hear and believe and have salvation in LORD JESUS CHRIST.(this will be the greater work to reach all the world with the truth)


CHRIST'S works also included his persecution, his suffering and his death, to do the will of his FATHER above all.

This will be our example.

GOD will grant his disciples whatever they need to accomplish his will.

Works also included the great deeds Jesus did. ie. amazing healings, casting out of demons etc etc. His disciples supposedly went on and did similar things, maybe even greater things, but nobody does those greater things today. We should be seeing this sort of stuff all the time amongst Christians, but we don't, do we?

or this one:

Matthew 17:20
Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

This is a teaching on true faith.

And what do you claim to be true faith?

Lets look at GOD'S example prayer.


verse 10 your will be done.

verse 11 grant us this day our daily bread.
this is a prayer for spiritual needs above all

your will be done, LORD grant us this day what we need to serve you.



All prayer has to be in accordance with the will of GOD

and this is true ,nothing will be imposssible for you as long as what you are praying and doing is according to the will of GOD

Matthew 6 (New King James Version)

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]

Jesus himself did not put any conditions on his promises. It was I think John or Peter that did later. They were the ones that claimed it needed to be in God's will or had to be done with the right motives. Jesus's words were a gaurantee. BY FAITH! What's the point in faith if it doesn't work because it's not in God's will? And the lord's prayer does not negate that gaurantee just because it says we should be praying "your will be done". Really what is the point in asking for God's will to be done anyway? If it's his will it's going to be done anyway whether you pray for it or not!

When was the last time you saw a Christian accomplish something amazing through faith? Throughout the years I heard a lot of stories, but I never saw anything or heard from such people first hand. Always heresay. Sorry, but that scripture is a broken promise just like the previous one I quoted.

or this one maybe:

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

See post #80 & #84 in why would GOD be the author of confusion

I can agree that God does not give every gift to everyone, but the fact is (apart from maybe Paul in the bible) nobody can drink deadly poison or be bitten by poisonous snakes without being badly injured. NO ONE (unless they have builty up immunity). And considering that there are so many Christians, you'd think there'd be a lot more faith healers around, but there aren't. And those who claim to cast out demons actually find out a short while later that the demons aren't cast out. Once again these are empty promises. Notice also that the scripture does not say these signs will SOMETIMES accompany those who believe. It is a statement that covers ALL believers.

and this:

Matthew 7 (New King James Version)
Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! .

This is all true but GOD does not always give people what they think they need.

GOD gives those who love him exaxtly what they need according to his will.

And does he give starving and suffering children what they need when they cry out to them?

As for me, while deconverting, I begged God many times to help me renew my faith in him. I begged him for a fresh touch from him so I would know he was real. Was it God's will that I should become an ex-Christian?

and this:

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

verse 50 whoever does the will of my FATHER in Heaven is my brother ,sister ,mother


Matthew 12 (New King James Version)
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?� 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.�

when was the last time you ever came across a Christian who did the will of God who got everything they asked for?

(The above are gaurantees)

Yes I agree in accordance to the will of GOD always.

No, the above scriptures do not impose any conditions on them. And what would be the point of making those assurances only to say "By the way, they only count if you ask for what I'm going to give you even if you don't pray". Can you not see how absurd that is? There is absolutey no point in praying for things that are God's will, because if they are God's will they will happen anyway. You might as well not pray at all, because whatever will be will be.

Now lets look at what GOD has promised those who follow him


verse 17 delivered up and scourged

verse 22 hated by all for my names sake

Well these are empty promises for a start. Have you been delivered up and scourged lately? Does everybody hate you? Christians just do not suffer this type of persecution any more and it's very unlikely they ever will in this politically correct society.

verse 23 persecuted from place to place

Persecutions Are Coming
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,[d] how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.

persecution and hatred by those of the world.



John 15 (New King James Version)
The World’s Hatred
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’[c]

Christians often like to claim they are being persecuted. It makes them feel holy and self-righteous. However there are many more minority groups that suffer way more persecution than Christians. I see no trend towards that sort of persecution of Christians, in fact the opposite. The day has long gone where Christians were fed to lions and used as candles to light cities. Christians have been prophesying doom and gloom for the last 2000 years, but so far nothing. I know myself that I received more persecution in the 70s and 80s than in the 90s and 00s as a Christian. Even then it was persecution from idiots who didn't respect other people and nothing worse than a bit of ridicule.

verse 22 stengthening the souls to continue in faith

we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom


Acts 14 (New King James Version)
Strengthening the Converts
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.�

Life is full of trials and tribulations. There's no evidence to suggest that Christians go through any more than any others.

Splitting into 2 posts here. Too much to deal with in one.

[OnceConvinced]

OK, there are a lot of scriptures you have quoted relating to trials and tribulations. The fact is whether you are a Christian or not you will suffer trials and tribulations. And these will build character. Nothing devine in any of those promises. I can make you a lot of promises too that are bound to turn out to be correct, but so what? I promise you that you will get a cold sometime in the future. But don't worry about it because my divine hand is on you. I'll fight it for you and then I promise that you will have immunity against that particular strain of cold for the rest of your life.

3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Seems like a lot of proud people will also have the kingdom of Heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.

False promise. Not all Christians who morn are comforted by God.

5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

So far an empty promise. The world powers at the moment are far from meek.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.

Didn't work for me.

7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.

Tell that to the Christian families slaughtered at the hands of Muslim extremists.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.

And what exactly is "pure of heart"?

On top of that I was not seeing God doing the things he was saying he
would do in the churches I belonged too. Prophecies coming forth from
church leaders, evangelists etc were amounting to nothing.

What did GOD say he would do?

Pretty much what I said earlier. General prophecies, the type you hear in every church you go to. Like how the church is going to do mighty things for God in the city. How revival is going to occur. Stuff like that. I hear those sort of prophecies all the time and after a while I started to become cynical whenever I heard them. Revival is always on the doorstep it seems, but it never quite gets there, does it?


Churches should not be prophecising outside of scripture

Revival is scriptural. Doing great things for God is scriptural.

Here is what they should be prophecising

verse 4 decevers

verse 5 false Christs

verse 6 wars must come

verse 7 nation against nation, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.

verse 8 only the begining of sorrows

verse 9 tribulation, hatred and death for those who truly follow CHRIST

verse 10 many will be offended by the truth

verse 11 more false prophits will rise up and deceve many

verse 12 lawlessness and the love of many will grow cold

verse 13 but he who endures to the end will be saved

It seems you have a very restricted view of God. Just because it says to prophecise over those things, don't necessarily mean they are the only things you should prophecise over.

I can find notthing horrible that GOD did

Then you obviously haven't done much study of the OT and you obviously don't believe that God is going to burn billions and billions of people for not believing in him.

people praying to get rid of evil over the city and world are praying agaist GOD's word in the scipture as we have just seen in the above passage

GOD has already told us these things are going to happen.

So in that case they are praying within God's will! Haven't you been claiming earlier that is how people should pray??

2) they pray to stop wars and violence

Christians believe that prayer accomplishes many many things. Personally I don't see any trouble with people praying for this sort of thing. It's better than praying for nice weather or for God to help you excel at sports.

But again GOD'S prophecy has fortold wars and violence so why pray against it.

Well that all depends on what particular wars are God's will isn't it?

Lets look at what LORD JESUS prayed for he is our example.

You seem to want to restrict yourself to what Jesus prayed for. This still does not negate the scriptures I quoted about "Everything you ask for in prayer you shall receive". You seem to be trying to put conditions on Jesus's promises. I can understand people doing that when they realise that God doesn't actually answer prayers. It's a good way of justifying it. But let's face it, that's what you are doing here. Justifying why God doesn't answer prayers. Your method seems to be to let whatever happens, happen and then claim it was God's will.

You can pray to GOD for him to cast a demon out of someone but not binding evil over here stopping demonic activity eveywhere.

Casting out demons accomplishes nothing. I have now come to realise that what Christians believe are demons are simply things like mental or physical illnesses.

And so what if someone attempts binds evil? What's the big deal about that? Does that make someone a false Christian just because the falsely believes he can bind evil?

Ofcourse a disciple of CHRIST can know the meaning of truth in the scripture

But disciples of Christ all have different interpretations of Scriptures. If a person can know the meaning by being a disciple there would be unity!

We just looked at what CHRIST prayed sanctify them by your truth

verse 26 THE HOLY SPIRIT will teach you all things

Thoe holy spirit seems to teach people many conflicting things.

The Gift of His Peace John 14 (New King James Version)
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

To say otherwise is denying the power of THE HOLY SPIRIT

The holy spirit does not gaurantee unity amongst Christians. In reality it all comes down to perspective. It is perspective that paints your interpretation of scripture.

And why do you need to be part of a denomination?

I never claimed one did. It is you that seems to be suggesting that some denominations (like penticostals) are not true Christians.

John 4 (New King James Version)

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.�

I'm no longer holding my breath for that hour.

[drs]

John 14 (New King James Version)
The Answered Prayer
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

You will follow GOD and do his works and greater works.

Through the HOLY SPIRIT the disciples of CHRIST will spread the word throughout the world and many will hear and believe and have salvation in LORD JESUS CHRIST.(this will be the greater work to reach all the world with the truth)


CHRIST'S works also included his persecution, his suffering and his death, to do the will of his FATHER above all.

This will be our example.

GOD will grant his disciples whatever they need to accomplish his will.

Works also included the great deeds Jesus did. ie. amazing healings, casting out of demons etc etc. His disciples supposedly went on and did similar things, maybe even greater things, but nobody does those greater things today. We should be seeing this sort of stuff all the time amongst Christians, but we don't, do we?

yes in this day and age and the last 100 years or so we have got radio, tv , satelite, internet, the greater work in which to reach all ends of the world with the gospel for all who will believe in LORD JESUS CHRIST.

or this one:

Matthew 17:20
Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

This is a teaching on true faith.

And what do you claim to be true faith?

True faith to endure to the end, To accomplish agaist all opposition the work That CHRIST has given you, to stay true to GOD no matter what.

Lets look at GOD'S example prayer.


verse 10 your will be done.

verse 11 grant us this day our daily bread.
this is a prayer for spiritual needs above all

your will be done, LORD grant us this day what we need to serve you.



All prayer has to be in accordance with the will of GOD

and this is true ,nothing will be imposssible for you as long as what you are praying and doing is according to the will of GOD

Matthew 6 (New King James Version)

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]

Jesus himself did not put any conditions on his promises. It was I think John or Peter that did later. They were the ones that claimed it needed to be in God's will or had to be done with the right motives. Jesus's words were a gaurantee. BY FAITH! What's the point in faith if it doesn't work because it's not in God's will? And the lord's prayer does not negate that gaurantee just because it says we should be praying "your will be done". Really what is the point in asking for God's will to be done anyway? If it's his will it's going to be done anyway whether you pray for it or not!

When was the last time you saw a Christian accomplish something amazing through faith? Throughout the years I heard a lot of stories, but I never saw anything or heard from such people first hand. Always heresay. Sorry, but that scripture is a broken promise just like the previous one I quoted.

The amazing thing is to stay true to CHRIST which is only possible through faith alone.

I think it is pretty amazing every time some one is reborn and delivered from death into life.


You can pray to GOD and ask Him whatever, he is your FATHER.

And your Heavenly FATHER knows what is best for and what he wants to give you.

But sometimes what we want and think we need is not always in accordance with GOD'S plans for our lifes, also GOD'S timeframe and yours for anwserd prayer is not the same.


If you ask anything in my name and it will be done for you that is the gaurantee right?


These 3 prayers are answerd when I pray them but the chances are I will not receive these answerd prayers till I physically die.



FATHER I ask for the abilty to shape shift into a eagle so that I may see what it is like to soar through the air.
(Yes son when you come to me you will be able to soar through the heavens)

FATHER I ask for to be healed from my paralyisis so that I may walk.
(Yes son you will be healed and have no more sickness and pain just be patient)

FATHER I ask for money and wealth.
(Yes son you will be rich forever more but untill then be satisfied with what I have provided you)


GOD has answerd these prayers abundantly more than what was asked.

We must be patient, I know the years go by and they seem long but they are only a dot in time.




Revelation 21 (New King James Version)

Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.�
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.� And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.�
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.�

or this one maybe:

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

See post #80 & #84 in why would GOD be the author of confusion

I can agree that God does not give every gift to everyone, but the fact is (apart from maybe Paul in the bible) nobody can drink deadly poison or be bitten by poisonous snakes without being badly injured. NO ONE (unless they have builty up immunity). And considering that there are so many Christians, you'd think there'd be a lot more faith healers around, but there aren't. And those who claim to cast out demons actually find out a short while later that the demons aren't cast out. Once again these are empty promises. Notice also that the scripture does not say these signs will SOMETIMES accompany those who believe. It is a statement that covers ALL believers.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

This scripture is in dispute of wether or not it was part of the original

I believe it would be unwise to base doctrine soley on this scripture as it does not say anywhere else in the New testement that all these sighns will accompany those who believe.

We must use scipture to understand scipture so we can get the correct understanding in all of GOD'S word.

and this:

Matthew 7 (New King James Version)
Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! .

This is all true but GOD does not always give people what they think they need.

GOD gives those who love him exaxtly what they need according to his will.

And does he give starving and suffering children what they need when they cry out to them?

As for me, while deconverting, I begged God many times to help me renew my faith in him. I begged him for a fresh touch from him so I would know he was real. Was it God's will that I should become an ex-Christian?

Maybe you had to become an ex-Christian to become a disciple of CHRIST

Maybe your prayer has already been anwsered and your faith will be restored in time.

Maybe GOD wants you to see through his eyes the way things realy are and not to follow those that have strayed from the path that speak untrue prophecies in his name and teach things that are not right.


And about starving children, the world has more than enough money and resource to take care of all hunger,shelter, clotheing and provide medical care for everyone.

But because of greed and evil these children and others are denied.


LORD JESUS has comanded that we love our neighber.
The world does not show love so it will be judged.

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.�

and this:

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

verse 50 whoever does the will of my FATHER in Heaven is my brother ,sister ,mother


Matthew 12 (New King James Version)
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?� 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.�

when was the last time you ever came across a Christian who did the will of God who got everything they asked for?

(The above are gaurantees)

Yes I agree in accordance to the will of GOD always.

No, the above scriptures do not impose any conditions on them. And what would be the point of making those assurances only to say "By the way, they only count if you ask for what I'm going to give you even if you don't pray". Can you not see how absurd that is? There is absolutey no point in praying for things that are God's will, because if they are God's will they will happen anyway. You might as well not pray at all, because whatever will be will be.

We have looked at this in the begining of the post but I will add the greatest example of all here.

Luke 22:42 (New King James Version)
42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.

Now lets look at what GOD has promised those who follow him


verse 17 delivered up and scourged

verse 22 hated by all for my names sake

Well these are empty promises for a start. Have you been delivered up and scourged lately? Does everybody hate you? Christians just do not suffer this type of persecution any more and it's very unlikely they ever will in this politically correct society.

Maybe not in north america but go preach the gospel over in Syria, Saudi Arabia,Iraq,China,Russia etc

You will encounter much opposition and persecution there.


Here the most you will probaly see is loss of job, family, friends,to be mocked and ridiculed but never the less this is persecution.

verse 23 persecuted from place to place

Persecutions Are Coming
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,[d] how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.

persecution and hatred by those of the world.



John 15 (New King James Version)
The World’s Hatred
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’[c]

Christians often like to claim they are being persecuted. It makes them feel holy and self-righteous. However there are many more minority groups that suffer way more persecution than Christians. I see no trend towards that sort of persecution of Christians, in fact the opposite. The day has long gone where Christians were fed to lions and used as candles to light cities. Christians have been prophesying doom and gloom for the last 2000 years, but so far nothing. I know myself that I received more persecution in the 70s and 80s than in the 90s and 00s as a Christian. Even then it was persecution from idiots who didn't respect other people and nothing worse than a bit of ridicule.

Here the difference is when disciples of CHRIST are persecuted, they are being persecuted for the truth of GOD.

Back in the begining of the post I said the greater work would be to reach all the world with gospel and this is going to be done alot by technolgy(satilite tv,radio, internet)



The people that have been preaching then end is now for almost 2000 years did not relize this because the technology was not yet made so the only way to spead the gospel was by mouth traveling place to place.


First LORD JESUS says the gospel will be preached to all the world as a witness to all nations then the end will come.

It has only been in the last few decades that this could be accomplised

Simultaneously preaching to all nations is only possible by our mordern technology
satelite,tv.radio,internet.


Matthew 24 (New King James Version)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


And here verse 9 the only way for all these people to see the witnesses dead bodies would be on satelite ,tv ,internet.


Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves.


and here verse 10 those that dwell on the earth will rejoice and send presents
to each other because of the plagues these witnesses of GOD put on the people of all the earth.


10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

verse6 There would be no way for all the people on the earth to know these prophets are the ones that tormented them unless they heard their prophecy by means of satelite,tv,radio,internet.

6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.


Revelation 11 (New King James Version)

Revelation 11
The Two Witnesses
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,[a] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.�
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
The Witnesses Killed

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.


So GOD has told us 2000 years ago and now it is possible for these prophecies to take place.

verse 22 stengthening the souls to continue in faith

we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom


Acts 14 (New King James Version)
Strengthening the Converts
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.�

Life is full of trials and tribulations. There's no evidence to suggest that Christians go through any more than any others.

No but it is the way they go through them that matters, being true to GOD though all trials and suffering and being faithfull to our LORD JESUS CHRIST with all our love amen.

[OnceConvinced]

I notice so far that only one of the "no" voters have posted a reason why they voted "no." Come on you others. Justify your answer. From what I have written in my OP, how is it that I was not a true Christian? After all I did everything that is required, so what didn't I do? How is it that after sincere repentance and accepting Christ as my savior I was not a true Christian? By maintaining your silence you are simply proving to me that Christianity is a crock and no one can be assured of their salvation.

[OnceConvinced]

yes in this day and age and the last 100 years or so we have got radio, tv , satelite, internet, the greater work in which to reach all ends of the world with the gospel for all who will believe in LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Internet, TV etc etc are not Christ's works. The point I am making is that Jesus was clearly talking about miracles. (He's not JUST talking about reaching the unsaved). We should expect to see the sort of things Jesus was doing, being done today by believers, but we aren't. Why aren't we? Where are all the miraculous healings? All the demons being cast out of people with mental illnesses? All that stuff? Why aren't Christians doing this stuff? We should be seeing far more of them doing it than just the odd faith healer at a crusade.

or this one:

Matthew 17:20
Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

This is a teaching on true faith.

And what do you claim to be true faith?

True faith to endure to the end, To accomplish agaist all opposition the work That CHRIST has given you, to stay true to GOD no matter what.

So have you ever seen that sort of faith in action by anyone on this Earth? Have you seen a Christian with that sort of faith doing the impossible? See? It's an unfullfilled promise. Christians do not do the impossible. Do you do the impossible? If not then you do not have true faith. Perhaps no Christian has that true faith you are talking about? Perhaps it is unobtainable?

The amazing thing is to stay true to CHRIST which is only possible through faith alone.

What is amazing about that? If Christ is who he says he is, then what would be the problem? The amazing things Christ did were not "remaining true to himself", after all he was God in flesh, wasn't he? What's amazing about a divine being remaining true to himself? His amazing things were miraculous healings, casting out of demons and being resurrected. Those are the amazing things Christ did, which we should see happening today if Jesus was telling the truth in the earlier scriptures.

I think it is pretty amazing every time some one is reborn and delivered from death into life.

Why? Is the message of the gospel so weak, is it so unconvincing? Is Christ's life so unamazing that people should be reborn? Is it so amazing that Christ is going to deliver someone from his own genocidal wrath? Would you consider it amazing if an abusive husband took mercy on his wife?

You can pray to GOD and ask Him whatever, he is your FATHER.

And your Heavenly FATHER knows what is best for and what he wants to give you.

But sometimes what we want and think we need is not always in accordance with GOD'S plans for our lifes, also GOD'S timeframe and yours for anwserd prayer is not the same.

You're preaching here. I am well aware of this stuff. Remember I was a Christian for over 30 years of my life. This is pretty standard fare and I understood those things.

I did not pray for wars to stop. And there was only a very short period of time where I endulged in "spiritual warfare" until I realised it was BS. My main prayers were for souls to be saved (particularly friends), for God to help me and others (ie, strength, faith, wisdom, words to say when needed, etc etc), for healings. Sure there may have been some things that I asked for that might have been considered selfish too, like God helping me find the right wife. But then does praying for the wrong things make you a false Christian? Of course not! There is nothing in the bible that says you must pray a certain way or only pray for certain things for you to be considered a true Christian.

It is irrelevent to say "hey, you're praying for the wrong sort of stuff" or "hey, you're not praying in God's will". This does not make on a false Christian, nor does it mean that God won't give you what you ask for.

These 3 prayers are answerd when I pray them but the chances are I will not receive these answerd prayers till I physically die.

FATHER I ask for the abilty to shape shift into a eagle so that I may see what it is like to soar through the air.
(Yes son when you come to me you will be able to soar through the heavens)

Who would ask such a thing? Besides when we pray it's not for rewards in Heaven. It's for things here on Earth now, while we're alive.

FATHER I ask for to be healed from my paralyisis so that I may walk.
(Yes son you will be healed and have no more sickness and pain just be patient)

If Christ's words are to believed, we should see this sort of thing happening all the time on Earth. Christ healed such people ON Earth. So should we if his words are to be believed. WhatEVER we ask for, we shall recieve. That's Jesus's gaurantee. He does not put conditions on it. Other bible writers put these conditions on later, obviously because they discovered first hand that Jesus's assurances were false.

FATHER I ask for money and wealth.
(Yes son you will be rich forever more but untill then be satisfied with what I have provided you)

Asking for wealth is probably a selfish thing. But is it wrong to ask for money that you need? After all the bible says he will supply all our needs. But he doesn't supply everyone's needs. You and I are fortunate that we live in countries where most of our basic needs are met. But in many countries, even ones with sincere Christians, their needs are not being met. Children are starving to death due to not having enough money for food, or even access to food. Is it wrong for them to beg God for help? Are they selfish? Are they doing it with the wrong motives? If Jesus is to be believed, then they should recieve help from God. But they don't, do they?

GOD has answerd these prayers abundantly more than what was asked.

How can you know that? You don't know that. You are presuming that in the long run the prayers will be answered. It's all very well to say you'll get those prayers answered in the afterlife, but we'll get everything we need and probably want in the afterlife. So how is that counted as answered prayer? Heck, it's not even necessary to pray for those things then. We pray for this world, now, not for things in the afterlife. It's going to be too late to have our friends and family saved in the afterlife, isn't it? At that point they'll be in God's torture chamber being barbequed for all eternity. I don't know about you, but I'll have trouble enjoying the afterlife, knowing my most precious loved ones are suffering. Perhaps God will violate our freewill and remove memories of those loved ones so we can live in bliss not knowing they're writhing in absolute agony.

We must be patient, I know the years go by and they seem long but they are only a dot in time.

People die in their sins, people who have been prayed for for years and years. Once again you are justifying God's inactivity. No answer for prayer? Wait some more. How does that build faith?

or this one maybe:

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

See post #80 & #84 in why would GOD be the author of confusion

I can agree that God does not give every gift to everyone, but the fact is (apart from maybe Paul in the bible) nobody can drink deadly poison or be bitten by poisonous snakes without being badly injured. NO ONE (unless they have builty up immunity). And considering that there are so many Christians, you'd think there'd be a lot more faith healers around, but there aren't. And those who claim to cast out demons actually find out a short while later that the demons aren't cast out. Once again these are empty promises. Notice also that the scripture does not say these signs will SOMETIMES accompany those who believe. It is a statement that covers ALL believers.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

This scripture is in dispute of wether or not it was part of the original

I believe it would be unwise to base doctrine soley on this scripture as it does not say anywhere else in the New testement that all these sighns will accompany those who believe.

We must use scipture to understand scipture so we can get the correct understanding in all of GOD'S word.

So there is an error here in the bible? So what else is in error? There could be many things you believe now that are false. Even looking at other scripture does not gaurantee you will get the correct understanding. That could be wrong too!See, the bible just can't be relied on!

Maybe you had to become an ex-Christian to become a disciple of CHRIST

Maybe your prayer has already been answered and your faith will be restored in time.

Maybe GOD wants you to see through his eyes the way things realy are and not to follow those that have strayed from the path that speak untrue prophecies in his name and teach things that are not right.

I was a disciple of Christ! I lived for him, I served him and worshiped him! I find it insulting that you would suggest I was following man, when it was God I was following. I am well aware of the dangers of "personality" based churches. I would never put a human on a pedistal like many do.

I have considered the possibility that God wants me to be an ex-Christian temporarily to act as a witness to others. It will take some major intervention on God's part to bring me back. Something devine. I ain't holding my breath for that!

Also let's get ne thing clear. I did not follow any human, only Christ. I learnt to take prophecies with a grain of salt. How can someone be led astray due to a prophecy about the church doing great things for God? I mean, let's get real here. There were no prophecies made that influenced me to change my behavior in any way. They were simply false prophecies and very typical of the ones you hear from Christians all the time, no matter what denomination you are in. I have been in many denominations, including non-penticostal ones and they are no different. They all believe they are following the bible. They all interpret it differently. It does not necessarily make them false Christians.

And about starving children, the world has more than enough money and resource to take care of all hunger,shelter, clotheing and provide medical care for everyone.

But because of greed and evil these children and others are denied.

And God stands by and does nothing while innocent children starve to death. What about those who are sold into prostitution or the ones being sexually abused by family members? What's God doing to help them? That scripture earlier says that he will help. But he doesn't. If he relies on selfish humans to do the job, then he is like a neglectful parent who leaves their children in the hands of paedophiles to take care of them.

Really I don't want to get into that debate again though. There have already been a couple of recent threads on that topic.

LORD JESUS has comanded that we love our neighber.
The world does not show love so it will be judged.

Meanwhile children continue to suffer and your apathetic God stands by and does not answer their prayers.

We have looked at this in the begining of the post but I will add the greatest example of all here.

Luke 22:42 (New King James Version)
42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.

So his prayer was a waste of time really. He knew what God's will was, so he knew it was a waste of time to ask the cup to be taken from him. A futile prayer. In the end it was just him saying, "Whatever you want, let it happen". As if his prayer was going to change that! You see, if we can't change God's will, what's the point in praying? You need to bear in mind that there were times in the bible where God did change his will because of prayer.

Now lets look at what GOD has promised those who follow him


verse 17 delivered up and scourged

verse 22 hated by all for my names sake

Well these are empty promises for a start. Have you been delivered up and scourged lately? Does everybody hate you? Christians just do not suffer this type of persecution any more and it's very unlikely they ever will in this politically correct society.

Maybe not in north america but go preach the gospel over in Syria, Saudi Arabia,Iraq,China,Russia etc

You will encounter much opposition and persecution there.


Here the most you will probaly see is loss of job, family, friends,to be mocked and ridiculed but never the less this is persecution.

I am well aware of Christians plight over there. But the fact is in most countries Christians are not persecuted. In fact from what I have learnt it is more likely that atheists will be persecuted in countries like the USA than Christians. There is less persecution for Christians now than before. Just take a look at those countries were communism has ended. The fact is God's promise was for ALL Christians. No just ones living in Muslim or Communist countries.

Here the difference is when disciples of CHRIST are persecuted, they are being persecuted for the truth of GOD.

What persecution? Truth of God? That's seems like a personal opinion to me. Do you have evidence to back up that claim?

The people that have been preaching then end is now for almost 2000 years did not relize this because the technology was not yet made so the only way to spead the gospel was by mouth traveling place to place.

Paul believed he had preached the word to "every living creature under the sun". Was he a liar? Most of that technology has been around for a while now. And look at all the doom and gloom prophecies leading up to the new millineum. Why should we believe that the end is near now when Jesus said that the end was coming soon and that those there at the time "would not taste death" before he returned again? The fact is there is little persecution for Christians today in the Western world. More persecution seems to be heaped on atheists or other minority groups than Christians.

First LORD JESUS says the gospel will be preached to all the world as a witness to all nations then the end will come.

It has only been in the last few decades that this could be accomplised

Not according to Paul. He claimed the gospel had been preached to "every living creature under the son". Was he wrong? In that case why would we take anything he says seriously?

The fact is the gospel has still not been preached to every one in the world. Muslims would sooner kill you than allow you to evangelise in their countries. How many of those Muslims can you really say have heard the gospel or for that matter heard it adequately to be able to make an informed decision on it. How many of them really have the opportunity to convert when doing so would result in their death?

Simultaneously preaching to all nations is only possible by our mordern technology
satelite,tv.radio,internet.

Tell that to people living in deepest darkest Africa!

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


And here verse 9 the only way for all these people to see the witnesses dead bodies would be on satelite ,tv ,internet.

Like people will really be sitting in front of their TV sets and computers when the world ends! Your last few posts are really starting to sound like people I have been listening to for many years. They all have these great reasons why the world is about to end. I'm not holding my breath. Ever heard the story about the boy who cried "wolf"? If by some amazing coincedence one of these prophecies did eventuate, then it will be the person who cried "wolf" who will be to blame if people are not prepared for it.

So GOD has told us 2000 years ago and now it is possible for these prophecies to take place.

You ought to study preterism. Peterists have even more convincing reasons why the prophecies all lined up in the first century. These days, I take any claims of the end times being upon us with a grain of salt, because this sort of stuff has been going on all my life, where we are considered "at the perfect period for it to be the end times". People come up with all sorts of very good and convincing reasons why and lots of reason how it couldn't have been any other time but now. They all have one thing in common. They were all completely and utterly wrong. Why should you be any different with your "false" prophecies. You see you are doing what you accuse me of doing. Following false prophecies made by man. I never lived my life based on those sort of prophecies. In fact I have never lived my life based on any prophecies made by man, as you seem to think I have. Have you made any serious life changes based on end times teachings? If not, why would you think I would make serious life changes based on prophecies made by church leaders?

No doubt there will come a time in your life where you will start to scoff when people claim the end is near. It happened for my dad (who is still a Christian by the way) and it happened to me long before I deconverted.

[disciplex]

I was brought up in a Christian home, having been taught Christianity and its virtues from birth. I believed it by default. My parents were genuine Christians, believing it was their job to teach me the ways of the lord. They lived the Christian life. One of the things I have always respected them for was that they way they were at Church was no different to the way they were at home. I saw them as good Christian role models and I believe that is part of the reason why I followed in their footsteps.

I officially became born again at the age of 7. I always tried hard to emulate Jesus, following his teachings, taking his advice. At the age of 16 I went into ministry for the first time, as a leader at kids camps. My church pastor recommended me and I was being called �Uncle Richard� by kids only 6 years younger than me. This was definitely not a pride thing. I felt privileged to be able to do something for God. I always welcomed opportunities to do things for God.

My life as a Christian, was simple. I believed Jesus to be the son of God. I had absolute faith that Jesus was who he said he was. I strived to be like him. I prayed regularly, read my bible and studied. I believed the bible to be the infallible word of God. I regularly put my life right with him, asking for forgiveness when I felt I needed to. I attended church most Sundays, and often evenings. I attended cell groups. I helped people when I could who needed it.

When I left home, I continued to follow Christ, eager to be involved in ministry, eager to worship and praise him. I was put in leadership roles, trusted and respected. But please don�t think I am trying to blow my own trumpet. I am just telling you this because I want you to see that there were many people who believed me to be a true Christian. Even non-Christians did not question my integrity. � apart from one when I was about 19 who criticized me for swearing occasionally, telling a few crude jokes and for once wearing a shirt with dragons on it.

I made no secrets of the fact I was a Christian. I loved to talk about the lord. I always attempted to set an example.

I was never a fan of religion. I never approved of churches like the catholic church which focused on a lot of religious ritual. I chose to go to churches where religion was generally looked down upon. I believed I had a �relationship with God�.

I have always strived to better myself. To be more like Christ.

Of course a couple of years ago, I left the faith (that�s another story)

There are many Christians I have come across on-line, including some here, who although they know little (or nothing at all) of my background, insist I was never a true Christian � or insinuate it. Some are quite judgemental about it. Some try to be polite about it. I know I shouldn�t let it bother me, But I served the lord genuinely for over 30 years. I know I did what was expect of me as a Christian. I put my heart and soul into it. I wasn�t perfect by any means, but no Christian is.

So my questions:

Based on what I�ve told you here�

Was I a true Christian? If not, why not? Where do you think I went wrong?'

BTW, I'm happy to elaborate on any issues if you wish to ask questions.

One question:

Did you come to Jesus after realizing how lost a sinner you are without Jesus?

[OnceConvinced]

It's impossible to remember back that far. But I did rededicate my life to the lord as a teenager. I believed that "all had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and that I needed forgiveness of my sins and continued forgiveness for the times I failed.