When Will The Rapture Come?

[JoeyKnothead]

I personally don't believe in any rapture event happening, but I thought I'd take a poll and see what folks have to say.

Question for debate:

When will the rapture come?

Show your work.

[Eph]

How about the coming of a Messiah? General timeframe?

Cnorman18 said:

As a matter of fact, Kabbalistic tradition (which is little known even among Jews) expects the Messiah to come at the end of the sixth millenium on the Jewish calendar, or sometime early in the seventh, or Sabbath, millenium; that would be in or shortly after the Hebrew year 6000. We have just begun the Hebrew year 5769, which leaves another 231 years.
What do I think? I dunno. Doesn't matter much, does it? None of us will be here.

LDS people (although most do not know it) also refer to the Jewish calendar when referring to the coming of the Messiah. Many of the revelations in our Doctrine and Covenants consistently has the Lord as saying, “I come quickly…� leaving the early saints believing that the day could happen in their lifetimes. Either way, the lesson is, prepare for his coming as if it is happening soon. Ultimately it doesn’t matter, if we are living right, we have nothing to fear. Still, it is an interesting topic for speculation.

Cnorman18 said:

That is the Jewish hope; that we can perfect the world - and make it worthy of the Messiah. Most modern Jews, those who still believe in any kind of Messiah at all, think that it's our job to get the Messianic Age started ourselves - and THEN the Messiah will come.
There is a subtext there; that's how you get a happy Messiah. People and the world might get worse instead of better - in which case, when the Messiah shows up, he's gonna be pissed.
See, in Jewish tradition, you have all these prophecies of the Day of the LORD being a day of blessing and peace and universal rejoicing; and then you have a bunch of others predicting a day of blazing wrath.
Which one will we get?
Like pretty much everything else in Jewish teaching, it's up to us.

If the Jews believe as you say, then that is a noble and commendable belief. More Christians should know that about Jews.

You speak of all of the changes happening in the world, then what of prophets?

The Old Testament includes stories of prophets (with apparent authority) preaching to the people in times of need. Not to cherry pick, but, Amos 3 says, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants, the prophets.� Do Jews believe in the ancient tradition of revelation as given to prophets…you know, the kind that made the children of Israel angry, but they would keep their writings and revere them after they killed them? As you know, LDS people believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Could the Jewish people believe in a modern day prophet considering the events of our time (in the tradition of Moses, Abraham, Noah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc)? (I am not insinuating that they should believe in Joseph Smith, I just want to know their tradition).

Cnorman18 said:

In any case, no Rapture. Nobody gets to fly up to the balcony and watch the show from the Director's Box. We're all stick down here in the mud and the blood and the beer, and we all have to do our part in the fight.

The New Testament does include scripture on this topic which says:
1 Thesselonians 4: 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Cnorman18 said (in a subsequent post)

For the record, the "rapture" refers to a belief widespread among some fundamentalists that all Christians will suddenly vanish and be miraculously transported to Heaven shortly before the "Tribulation," a time of great suffering that precedes the return of Jesus, the triumph of Good and the beginning of the Millenium, a thousand years of perfect peace and justice

I do not want to give you the impression that our beliefs do not allow for teachings about the resurrection, because they do – albeit different than you described it above. We don’t call it “rapture� outside of the fact that the word itself is not scriptural, also because we do not believe Christians will suddenly “vanish�. Evangelicals have attempted to define it in various ways and show what it might be like (including in some very ridiculous movies).

LDS modern day revelation teaches that at the time of the Messiah’s coming, there will be a “first� resurrection where the righteous that are dead will rise in bodily form. LDS people believe that throughout his reign on earth, there will be subsequent resurrections until all mankind are eventually resurrected, “the just and the unjust�. If these teachings are somewhat vague in the New Testament, they are detailed/magnified in our Doctrine and Covenants (especially Section 76) and throughout the Book of Mormon.

Cnorman18 said:

We Jews don't worry about the End Time of the World much. We figure there's a guy about to be executed, and a child starving to death, and a destitute family, and a political prisoner, and an AIDS patient, and many, many more, that are facing their very own End Times right now.
God won't help them. We have to.
We have learned that no matter how good and pious and prayerful and loving you are, you can't depend on God. (See Holocaust, The)
HE isn't going to rescue is and make the world better, and praying and praising and basically sitting around and singing songs and waiting for Him to do it is a fricken SIN, okay? It's OUR job to make the world better, and THAT is much more important than any doctrine or belief or supernatural faith.

I agree. God does not step in and do what we can (and should) do for ourselves and our brothers and sisters. (see James 1 & 2)

[cnorman18]

How about the coming of a Messiah? General timeframe?

Cnorman18 said:

As a matter of fact, Kabbalistic tradition (which is little known even among Jews) expects the Messiah to come at the end of the sixth millenium on the Jewish calendar, or sometime early in the seventh, or Sabbath, millenium; that would be in or shortly after the Hebrew year 6000. We have just begun the Hebrew year 5769, which leaves another 231 years.
What do I think? I dunno. Doesn't matter much, does it? None of us will be here.

LDS people (although most do not know it) also refer to the Jewish calendar when referring to the coming of the Messiah.

Interesting I did not know that.

Many of the revelations in our Doctrine and Covenants consistently has the Lord as saying, “I come quickly…� leaving the early saints believing that the day could happen in their lifetimes. Either way, the lesson is, prepare for his coming as if it is happening soon. Ultimately it doesn’t matter, if we are living right, we have nothing to fear. Still, it is an interesting topic for speculation.

Indeed it is. We Jews generally leave all that to God, but you will occasionally find articles or discussions online that include such speculation. You will rarely find a Jew who considers it of any importance, though.

Cnorman18 said:

That is the Jewish hope; that we can perfect the world - and make it worthy of the Messiah. Most modern Jews, those who still believe in any kind of Messiah at all, think that it's our job to get the Messianic Age started ourselves - and THEN the Messiah will come.
There is a subtext there; that's how you get a happy Messiah. People and the world might get worse instead of better - in which case, when the Messiah shows up, he's gonna be pissed.
See, in Jewish tradition, you have all these prophecies of the Day of the LORD being a day of blessing and peace and universal rejoicing; and then you have a bunch of others predicting a day of blazing wrath.
Which one will we get?
Like pretty much everything else in Jewish teaching, it's up to us.

If the Jews believe as you say, then that is a noble and commendable belief. More Christians should know that about Jews.

That's why I'm here; I think more people in general, including Christians, should have a bit more understanding of what Jews do and do not believe, and how Judaism differs from Christianity and other faiths. .

You speak of all of the changes happening in the world, then what of prophets?

The Old Testament includes stories of prophets (with apparent authority) preaching to the people in times of need. Not to cherry pick, but, Amos 3 says, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants, the prophets.� Do Jews believe in the ancient tradition of revelation as given to prophets…you know, the kind that made the children of Israel angry, but they would keep their writings and revere them after they killed them?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the idea that the Jews of old "killed their prophets" is a bit of a canard. The majority of Jewish prophets died in peace.

Second (and I have posted this elsewhere recently too), in Jewish tradition, prophecy has very little to do with predicting the future; it has more to do with speaking for God. Predicting the future may be an incidental part of it, but then it is generally explicitly stated to be prophecy, and is more often than not concerning the near future.

As you know, LDS people believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Could the Jewish people believe in a modern day prophet considering the events of our time (in the tradition of Moses, Abraham, Noah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc)?

Briefly; No.

In Jewish tradition, i.e., the Talmud, the age of the Prophets is explicitly said to be closed. It is now OUR job to understand and interpret the words of Scripture. God speaks to us no longer.

(I am not insinuating that they should believe in Joseph Smith, I just want to know their tradition).

Understood.

Cnorman18 said:

In any case, no Rapture. Nobody gets to fly up to the balcony and watch the show from the Director's Box. We're all stick down here in the mud and the blood and the beer, and we all have to do our part in the fight.

The New Testament does include scripture on this topic which says:
1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As you imply below, that is quite a long way from the idea that people will vanish.

(Bear in mind that I do not consider the NT at all sacred or authoritative anyway.)

Cnorman18 said (in a subsequent post)

For the record, the "rapture" refers to a belief widespread among some fundamentalists that all Christians will suddenly vanish and be miraculously transported to Heaven shortly before the "Tribulation," a time of great suffering that precedes the return of Jesus, the triumph of Good and the beginning of the Millenium, a thousand years of perfect peace and justice

I do not want to give you the impression that our beliefs do not allow for teachings about the resurrection, because they do – albeit different than you described it above. We don’t call it “rapture� outside of the fact that the word itself is not scriptural, also because we do not believe Christians will suddenly “vanish�. Evangelicals have attempted to define it in various ways and show what it might be like (including in some very ridiculous movies).

No argument there. I believe some obscure and little-known Kabbalistic works go into theories about the nature of the Last Days, but few Jews waste much time on such things.

LDS modern day revelation teaches that at the time of the Messiah’s coming, there will be a “first� resurrection where the righteous that are dead will rise in bodily form. LDS people believe that throughout his reign on earth, there will be subsequent resurrections until all mankind are eventually resurrected, “the just and the unjust�. If these teachings are somewhat vague in the New Testament, they are detailed/magnified in our Doctrine and Covenants (especially Section 76) and throughout the Book of Mormon.

With all due respect, that's the sort of thing we hold to be of little interest

Cnorman18 said:

We Jews don't worry about the End Time of the World much. We figure there's a guy about to be executed, and a child starving to death, and a destitute family, and a political prisoner, and an AIDS patient, and many, many more, that are facing their very own End Times right now.
God won't help them. We have to.
We have learned that no matter how good and pious and prayerful and loving you are, you can't depend on God. (See Holocaust, The)
HE isn't going to rescue is and make the world better, and praying and praising and basically sitting around and singing songs and waiting for Him to do it is a fricken SIN, okay? It's OUR job to make the world better, and THAT is much more important than any doctrine or belief or supernatural faith.

I agree. God does not step in and do what we can (and should) do for ourselves and our brothers and sisters. (see James 1 & 2)

Agreed. It is a fact that Martin Luther thought that James should be removed from the canon because it conflicted with his (and Paul's) doctrine of sola Fidei, salvation by faith alone.