+++ THE COLLECTIVE MESSIAH +++

[Ben Masada]

The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter
53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah
1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem. That's the theme of the whole book of
Isaiah: Judah. The House of Jacob, called by the new name Israel, from the stock
of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a
syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and that Servant is
indetified with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel, the Jewish
People is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there is no paradox;
we can have that from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1. "Israel is My son; so let
My son go that he may serve Me." Says the Lord.

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when
in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for financing the rebuilding of the Temple. And herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

Ben

[Goat]

goat,

Who are "MY PEOPLE" in:

Isaiah 43:20
Isaiah 47:6
Isaiah 53:8

?

Paul

Why don't you look at the entire passage IN context?

Does it matter, since we are discussing 'WHO is the servant?'. The servant is quite
plain



Isaiah 41:8-9 - (8) But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend. (9) You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its farthest corners, and said to you, “you are My servant; I have chosen you and I [will] not cast you away".

Isaiah 44:1-2,21 - (1) Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. Thus says the L-rd your Maker, and He who formed you from the womb shall help you. (2) Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (21) Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you; you are My servant, O Israel, you shall not be forgotten of Me.

Isaiah 45:4 - For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, I called to you by your name

Isaiah 49:3 - And [G-d] said to me: "you are My servant, O Israel in whom I will be glorified!"

[Ben Masada]

goat,

Who are "MY PEOPLE" in:

Isaiah 43:20
Isaiah 47:6
Isaiah 53:8

?

Paul

+++++++++++++++++++++++

The answer to Isaiah 43:20 is in 44:1,2,21. The united Israel.

The answer to Isaiah 47:6 is in 47:1. Who spent 70 years in Babylon? Judah.

The answer to Isaiah 53:8 is Israel, the Ten Tribes who was removed from existence for good. At least as Tribes.

Ben

[Paul2]

goat,

The servant is quite plain

Israel was/is not a righteous servant, so this must be another servant. God is able to have both a nation-servant and an individual righteous servant.

Read the Jerusalem Post. You'll find Israel is not righteous as a nation.

Paul

[Goat]

goat,

The servant is quite plain

Israel was/is not a righteous servant, so this must be another servant. God is able to have both a nation-servant and an individual righteous servant.

Read the Jerusalem Post. You'll find Israel is not righteous as a nation.

Paul[/quote

You didn't respond to my response about your previous claim..I guess you can't understand what I was saying. I have to disagree with your analaysis about the servant song though.

[Ben Masada]

Israel was/is not a righteous servant, so this must be another servant. God is able to have both a nation-servant and an individual righteous servant.

Read the Jerusalem Post. You'll find Israel is not righteous as a nation.

Paul

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That righteous servant was Israel alright. He was righteous of the sins he died
for, because they were not his sins but the sins of Judah. If we think of his own
sins, of course he was not righteous! But the point of redemption is that to redeem
Judah from being removed from existence, Israel had to go for the sins of Judah.
That's why Israel went as a righteous servant. Why is it so hard to understand?
My High School students get the thread of the idea in no time.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Read the Jerusalem Post. You'll find Israel is not righteous as a nation.

Paul

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the State of Israel.
And everything to do with Israel, the Jewish People in general. Any reference
in the Scriptures to Israel is a reference to the Jewish People.

Ben: <*)))><

[drs]

The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter
53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah
1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem. That's the theme of the whole book of
Isaiah: Judah. The House of Jacob, called by the new name Israel, from the stock
of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a
syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and that Servant is
indetified with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel, the Jewish
People is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there is no paradox;
we can have that from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1. "Israel is My son; so let
My son go that he may serve Me." Says the Lord.

Last but not least, Jesus was no doubt part of the Messiah but not on an individual
basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when
in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for financing the rebuilding of the Temple. And herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

Ben

Here we can see the true meaning that this scripture speaks of LORD JESUS CHRIST.


Matthew 8 (New King James Version)

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:


“ He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.�


1 Peter 2 (New King James Version)

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

1 Corinthians 15 (New King James Version)
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

[Ben Masada]

Here we can see the true meaning that this scripture speaks of LORD JESUS CHRIST.


Matthew 8 (New King James Version)

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:


“ He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.�


1 Peter 2 (New King James Version)

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

1 Corinthians 15 (New King James Version)
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

______________________

If Jesus took our infirmities and bore our iniquities by being crucified, how about the other thousands of Jews who went through the same fate at the hands of the Romans? You don't pretend that Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the
Romans, do you? I didn't think so.

Didn't the others have also their own bodies on the treee? Didn't the others have the same stripes applied unto their bodies just like Jesus? Didn't they bleed and suffer the same pains. Many others also died on the cross before, during and after Jesus' turn. Don't they count?

How about the thousands of Jews whose heads were decapitated by the Christian sword of the Crusades? I bet they were killed like sheep and not like men. How
about the thousands of Jews burned alive in the public squares of the Christian
Inquision throughout Europe? Did they suffer any less than Jesus on the cross?
Less but not least, six million Jews died a worse death in the gas chanbers of the
Nazis. But of course, it doesn't count: Perhaps they were not humans. Just a million and a half of them were children being thrown alive into gas chambers or
being thrown against wals to have their little bodies dismembered before the very
eyes of their mothers. But of course, none of this means a thing to you because the death of Jesus on the cross overrates any other Jewish suffering. Please, have mercy and give commonsense a break!

Ben: <*)))><

[drs]

Here we can see the true meaning that this scripture speaks of LORD JESUS CHRIST.


Matthew 8 (New King James Version)

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:


“ He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.�


1 Peter 2 (New King James Version)

24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

1 Corinthians 15 (New King James Version)
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

______________________

If Jesus took our infirmities and bore our iniquities by being crucified, how about the other thousands of Jews who went through the same fate at the hands of the Romans? You don't pretend that Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the
Romans, do you? I didn't think so.

Didn't the others have also their own bodies on the treee? Didn't the others have the same stripes applied unto their bodies just like Jesus? Didn't they bleed and suffer the same pains. Many others also died on the cross before, during and after Jesus' turn. Don't they count?

How about the thousands of Jews whose heads were decapitated by the Christian sword of the Crusades? I bet they were killed like sheep and not like men. How
about the thousands of Jews burned alive in the public squares of the Christian
Inquision throughout Europe? Did they suffer any less than Jesus on the cross?
Less but not least, six million Jews died a worse death in the gas chanbers of the
Nazis. But of course, it doesn't count: Perhaps they were not humans. Just a million and a half of them were children being thrown alive into gas chambers or
being thrown against wals to have their little bodies dismembered before the very
eyes of their mothers. But of course, none of this means a thing to you because the death of Jesus on the cross overrates any other Jewish suffering. Please, have mercy and give commonsense a break!

Ben: <*)))><

The difference is LORD JESUS CHRIST is the HOLY LAMB of GOD who became the sin offering and attonement for all who will believe.


John 1 (New King James Version)

The Lamb of God

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Peter 1 (New King James Version)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Revelation 5 (New King James Version)

Worthy Is the Lamb

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[d] kings[e] and priests to our God;
And we[f] shall reign on the earth.�

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


“ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!�

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:


“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!�[g]

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!� And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.




2 Corinthians 5

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


1 Peter 3:18

Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

[Ben Masada]

[quote="drs"


The difference is LORD JESUS CHRIST is the HOLY LAMB of GOD who became the sin offering and attonement for all who will believe.


John 1 (New King James Version)

The Lamb of God

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Peter 1 (New King James Version)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Revelation 5 (New King James Version)

Worthy Is the Lamb

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us[d] kings[e] and priests to our God;
And we[f] shall reign on the earth.�

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:


“ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!�

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:


“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!�[g]

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!� And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.




2 Corinthians 5

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


1 Peter 3:18

Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.[/quote]
_____________________

All Pauline rhetoric fabricated 30 years after Jesus had been gone. The above is
possible to be believed only and exclusively by faith. Since where faith begins,
knowledge ends, and for lack of knowledge people perish, according to Hosea 4:6, the realm of the dead must be inhabited by those who live by faith.

Ben: <*)))><