Paul and the "Christos"

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Question for debate 1. If Paul is talking about a Jesus of history, why doesn't he mention any of his deeds, miracles, parables, or words?

Question for debate 2. Was Paul a Gnostic Christian?

Question for debate 3. What is the nature of Paul's Christ, or "Christos"?

[Goose]

The books you acknowledged in another thread as authentically Pauline: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, & Romans.

Question for debate 1. If Paul is talking about a Jesus of history, why doesn't he mention any of his deeds, miracles, parables, or words?

He does.

Deeds:
1. The crucifixion of Jesus:
Galatians 3:1

O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?

1Cor 2:2

For while I was with you I resolved to know nothing except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1Thessalonians 2:15

the Jews; who both killed the Lord Jesus...

2. Jesus' appearances after his death.:
1Corinthians 15:5-8

and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep; then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also.

Jesus was born a man in the line of David declared the Son of God by his resurrection form the dead. Romans 1:3-4

concerning his Son[Jesus], who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,

Miracles:

1. The resurrection:
Rom 8:11

And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.

1Corinthians 15:3-4

For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

1 Co 15:20

But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.

Parables: nope.

Words:

1 Co 11:23-25

For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, "This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me." In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

Question for debate 2. Was Paul a Gnostic Christian?

Nope.

Question for debate 3. What is the nature of Paul's Christ, or "Christos"?

Philippians 2:5-11

Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in Christ Jesus: In God's own form existed he, And shared with God equality, Deemed nothing needed grasping. Instead, poured out in emptiness, A servant's form did he possess, A mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be, And lived in all humility, Death on a cross obeying. Now lifted up by God to heaven, A name above all others given, This matchless name possessing. And so, when Jesus' name is called, The knees of everyone should fall Where'er they are residing. Then every tongue in one accord, Will say that Jesus Christ is Lord, While God the Father praising.

1. He shared equality with God.
2. Became a man.
3. Died on the cross.
4. Was raised and ascended to heaven.
5. Jesus is Lord.

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1. He shared equality with God.
2. Became a man.
3. Died on the cross.
4. Was raised and ascended to heaven.

Hmmm... that's interesting. You just outlined the story of over a hundred different godmen throughout ancient history, such as Horus, Tammuz, Attis, Dionysus, Prometheus, Krishna, to name a very few. But you left out the virgin birth, the water-into-wine miracle, the baptism in a river, and, my favorite, the 12 disciples. These too are shared. Do you have an insightful explanation for this.

It is also interesting that you used the phrase "died on the cross" rather than a cross. I would have to agree with you because it alludes to the cross being an archetypal symbol of the Spirit's descent into matter - yes, Jesus was crucified on the Cross of Light, or Tree of Life, just like his predecessors. Thank you for making that Freudian slip. It proves that the subconscious mind can't lie to itself. So yes, it would be the Cross; not a cross.

Sorry. I know this was a bit off the topic and I will formulate a response that addresses your post more directly very soon. In all honesty, I do appreciate your response to the subject, and will admit you made some good arguments that will take some thinking to respond to. I will quote a bit from 1 Corinthians to jumpstart my point that Paul's view of the Resurrection is purly spiritual, and that he knew not of a Jesus of flesh and blood anymore than Philo did.

But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed...
So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is impersihable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Notice that he comes right out and calls the enquirer a "fool." He is speaking out against the profane and vulgar interpretation of the resurrection of the dead.

Questions: Do you believe that God/Christ will raise your physical corpse from the grave when the supposed Judgment Day comes (in the mean time, preserve it from decay, I hope - if not, it would be quite gruesome, don't you think)? You say you believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection, but how did he ascend to heaven then? Did he fly out into space defying its lifeless vacuum? Is heaven a physical place in the material universe? If not, did he have to die all over again to spiritually ascend to heaven? There's a lot of holes, in my opinion, in the "physical resurrection" doctrine of orthodoxy... or at least, a lot of questions to be answered.

[Goose]

There are about a dozen threads potentially emerging from this thread. Let's try to stay on topic as best as possible.

1. He shared equality with God.
2. Became a man.
3. Died on the cross.
4. Was raised and ascended to heaven.

Hmmm... that's interesting. You just outlined the story of over a hundred different godmen throughout ancient history, such as Horus, Tammuz, Attis, Dionysus, Prometheus, Krishna, to name a very few. But you left out the virgin birth, the water-into-wine miracle, the baptism in a river, and, my favorite, the 12 disciples. These too are shared. Do you have an insightful explanation for this.

This isn't really relevant to Paul. I've seen these lists presented many times for the copy-cat thesis. What I've yet to see is the evidence. Quote the primary source, when it was written, and by who. That way we can see just how similar these really are. That way we can see who borrowed from who, and if there even was borrowing.

It is also interesting that you used the phrase "died on the cross" rather than a cross. I would have to agree with you because it alludes to the cross being an archetypal symbol of the Spirit's descent into matter - yes, Jesus was crucified on the Cross of Light, or Tree of Life, just like his predecessors. Thank you for making that Freudian slip. It proves that the subconscious mind can't lie to itself. So yes, it would be the Cross; not a cross.

I think you're making far too much out of this. I refer to my wife sometimes as the wife, too. What of it?

Sorry. I know this was a bit off the topic and I will formulate a response that addresses your post more directly very soon.

People that think they need to respond quickly or they are admitting defeat are foolish. Take your time. Think about what you want to say.

In all honesty, I do appreciate your response to the subject, and will admit you made some good arguments that will take some thinking to respond to. I will quote a bit from 1 Corinthians to jumpstart my point that Paul's view of the Resurrection is purly spiritual, and that he knew not of a Jesus of flesh and blood anymore than Philo did.

But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed...
So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is impersihable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Notice that he comes right out and calls the enquirer a "fool." He is speaking out against the profane and vulgar interpretation of the resurrection of the dead.

Paul is calling them foolish for even asking the question in the first place. In other words foolish for doubting the nature of the resurrected body. Doubting that the dead will be raised with a physical body. It's Paul's polemic against false teachers in the Corinthian church.

This entire argument about Paul believing in a spiritual resurrection of Jesus hangs in the balance of some strained interpretations taken out of context of some difficult analogies made by Paul in 1 Cor 15:35-49. It also ignores the passages where Paul direclty speaks of a physically resurrected Jesus. And finally it ignores the fact that Paul, being a former Pharisee, likely believed in the physcial resurrection of the dead.

Questions: Do you believe that God/Christ will raise your physical corpse from the grave when the supposed Judgment Day comes (in the mean time, preserve it from decay, I hope - if not, it would be quite gruesome, don't you think)?

Is this on topic?

You say you believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection, but how did he ascend to heaven then?

What do you mean how? Jesus' body was changed to become compatable for heaven just the believers will be. 1 Cor 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21.

Did he fly out into space defying its lifeless vacuum? Is heaven a physical place in the material universe? If not, did he have to die all over again to spiritually ascend to heaven? There's a lot of holes, in my opinion, in the "physical resurrection" doctrine of orthodoxy... or at least, a lot of questions to be answered.

You should start some threads on those questions then.

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This isn't really relevant to Paul.

I believe I addressed that... and apologized. However, the assertions that you wrote at the end of your post were also off the topic of Paul, and I coundn't help not to express my feelings about it.

I've seen these lists presented many times for the copy-cat thesis. What I've yet to see is the evidence.

Maybe you're not looking very hard, or merely see what you wish to see. There is a mass amount of scholarship on the subject that points with steady directness to the truth.

Quote the primary source, when it was written, and by who. That way we can see just how similar these really are. That way we can see who borrowed from who, and if there even was borrowing.

Ok, sure. We can go down that road, but I don't think you'll like the end result. Cultural "borrowing" is a fact of sociological history and the evidence is everywhere - hence, Greco-Roman. Maybe I'll start another thread on the topic.

I think you're making far too much out of this. I refer to my wife sometimes as the wife, too. What of it?

In a spiritual sense, she would be the wife, especially if she is your soulmate. It is an expression of the Sacred Marriage of the Logos and Sophia - Word and Wisdom of God - and where to holy souls meet in union they embody a part of the Christos. This, I say, is a wonderful, sacred mystery... like the material presented in the gospels, which you prefer the literal interpretation of. Whether you like it or not, there is a big difference in the connotation of 'a' or 'the' (i.e. a Jesus, or the Jesus).

Paul is calling them foolish for even asking the question in the first place. In other words foolish for doubting the nature of the resurrected body. Doubting that the dead will be raised with a physical body.

I'm sorry. I'll simply have to disagree.

It also ignores the passages where Paul direclty speaks of a physically resurrected Jesus.

Those are metaphors for spiritual awakening, or "resurrection," from the "dead" state of ignorance. You can't necessarly prove they aren't anymore than I can prove they are.

And finally it ignores the fact that Paul, being a former Pharisee, likely believed in the physcial resurrection of the dead.

But Paul had a vision of the Cosmic Christ that transformed him spiritually. This would go a long way to prove that he had changed his thoughts and views of the old religion, or at least did not believe exactly the same as the Pharisees - he had transcended his religious understanding of such things.

Questions: Do you believe that God/Christ will raise your physical corpse from the grave when the supposed Judgment Day comes (in the mean time, preserve it from decay, I hope - if not, it would be quite gruesome, don't you think)?

Is this on topic?

So what! Why are you avoiding a direct question? It's a simple yes or no answer. Where's your faith? If you believed so faithfully in the physical resurrection of the dead, I would think you would just come out and say it. Why? Does it sound ridiculous when it's worded that way? If so, it should, because it is ridiculous. I'm sure if we dug up the body of some ancient saint, it would be nothing but a rotting corpse. Maybe you should get in to archaeology and find out for yourself.

What do you mean how? Jesus' body was changed to become compatable for heaven just the believers will be. 1 Cor 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21.

Oh, I see. They magically transform from corpses into perfectly healthy living bodies. Interesting.