Subforum assumption, Bible authority

[daedalus 2.0]

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

I agree. This subforum allows the believer to skip the sticky, uncomfortable mess of showing the Bible is true and dive right into their doctrine. This forum needs to be this way because Xians need protection from this basic logical process.

Now, when I reference Andrea Yates or Fred Phelps as an example of the dangers of Xianity, the Xian will say: But you can't judge Xianity by the people who don't represent Xianity.

My question is this: If we are assuming the Bible is an authority - whose authority do we use? All we get are a long list of people who DON'T speak for Xianity, but is there anyone who does? Jesus? But he didn't write anything and the Bible's authority is up to interpretation.

Personally, I like Bob Price's or Bishop Shelby Sprong's interpretation.

Whose authority do you accept as the authority on what authority the Bible holds as authority?

[daedalus 2.0]

That's right. It does sound crazy to you because the Words of God are crazy to Satan and his followers. You reject the Light because you are so filled with darkness.

The same can be said here as well. If you actually are interested in changing the opinions of others, logic and courtesy go much farther than statements of condemnation. These comments are only productive if you are looking to be banned from the site.

It's a sad day when a Xian can't testify in a subforum dedicated to Xianity, the Bible and being free of pesky Secular questioning of God's Holy Word on High, Hallalujah, Praise be Jesus and the Word! Sorry, the Spirit took me.

All I'm saying is that I am no longer trying to insult people. Blessed are those who aren't insulted by me.

I have become a Xian and now Praise Jesus with a light heart and light in my heart and shine it all around, like a water hose of love.

[Jester]

That's right. It does sound crazy to you because the Words of God are crazy to Satan and his followers. You reject the Light because you are so filled with darkness.

The same can be said here as well. If you actually are interested in changing the opinions of others, logic and courtesy go much farther than statements of condemnation. These comments are only productive if you are looking to be banned from the site.

It's a sad day when a Xian can't testify in a subforum dedicated to Xianity, the Bible and being free of pesky Secular questioning of God's Holy Word on High, Hallalujah, Praise be Jesus and the Word! Sorry, the Spirit took me.

All I'm saying is that I am no longer trying to insult people. Blessed are those who aren't insulted by me.

I have become a Xian and now Praise Jesus with a light heart and light in my heart and shine it all around, like a water hose of love.

As per the rules, any response you have to a moderator comment is to be done via PM. You are dangerously close to being banned from the site, and continuing to ignore the rules will not help your position.

[daedalus 2.0]

Whose authority do you accept as the authority on what authority the Bible holds as authority?

Which Bible is considered the authority? Many Xians claim the KJV is the best translation, but this is based on a later Canon. How is the Xian supposed to determine which Bible is correct since each book of the Bible doesn't specifically reference another book (except some, but so do the Gnostic Gospels).

This all points to a man-made collection of the Bible, and the current one (KJV or The Message, e.g.) was created by a democratic vote in a few councils over the span of 200+ years. (many generations).

The first “canon� was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

The councils followed something similar to the following principles to determine whether a New Testament book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit: 1) Was the author an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle? 2) Is the book being accepted by the Body of Christ at large? 3) Did the book contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching? 4) Did the book bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit?

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

The first Canon was actually Marcion's but he is labelled a heretic and not mentioned on this Xian site.


Now, the big question is if the Doctrine hadn't been established (the Council of Nicene had to be convened to establish the Doctrine because there were so many different versions), how did they determine if each book agreed with the doctrine(teaching)?

And keep in mind, there are 30,000+ denominations of Xianity, a schism between the Prots and Caths, New branches (Islam, Mormonism).

In the end, it is obvious that Xians choose their Bible by their own authority. They listen to their local pastor or local community members/family and decide to go with the one they grow up with. This bears out for all religions.


Bonus points: does anyone know who was present in the meetings to establish the Canon? Pious believers or politicians?



Extra reading:

There was no canon of scripture in the early Church; there was no Bible. The Bible is the book of the Church; she is not the Church of the Bible. It was the Church--her leadership, faithful people--guided by the authority of the Spirit of Truth which discovered the books inspired by God in their writing. The Church did not create the canon; she discerned the canon. Fixed canons of the Old and New Testaments, hence the Bible, were not known much before the end of the 2nd and early 3rd century.

Catholic Christians together with Protestant and Evangelical Christians hold the same canon of the New Testament, 27 books, all having been originally written in the Greek language.

Catholic Christians accept the longer Old Testament canon, 46 books, from the Greek Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Alexandrian Canon.

Protestant and Evangelical Christians, from the Reformers onward, accept the shorter Old Testament canon, 39 books, from the Hebrew Palestinian Canon. Jews have the same canon as Protestants.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap030700.htm



Here is a handy-dandy chart:

Cross Reference Table: Writings and Authorities

Each symbol in the large table below corresponds to a specific authority and a specific writing.
The symbols summarize the opinion of the authority about the writing.
If the symbol is blue, select it with the mouse to jump to the evidence.
The symbols have this meaning:
Symbol Opinion of Authority
c accepted; true; scriptural; or quoted from very approvingly
p possible approving quotation or allusion
e acceptable, but only with changes
q dubious; disputed; or useful for inspiration
s spurious (in the classification of Eusebius)
x false; heretical; heterodox; quoted from very disapprovingly
· not mentioned or quoted from; opinion unknown


Ig Po M Va JM Ir C T MC O E CS A D P V
Gospel according to Matthew c c x c c c c c c c c c c c c c
Gospel according to Mark · c · c c c c c c c c c c c c c
Gospel according to Luke c c e c c c c c c c c c c c c c
Gospel according to John · · x c c c c c c c c c c c c c
Acts c c x · · c c c c c c c c c c c
Romans c c e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
I Corinthians c c e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
II Corinthians · c e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
Galatians · c e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
Ephesians c c e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
Philippians · c e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
Colossians c · e c · c c c c c c c c c c c
I Thessalonians c c e · · c c c c c c c c c c c
II Thessalonians · c e · · c c c c c c c c c c c
I Timothy · c x · · c c c c c c c c c c c
II Timothy · c x · · c c c c c c c c c c c
Titus · · x · · c c c c c c c c c c c
Philemon · · e · · · · c c c c c c · c c
Hebrews · c · · · p c c · c c q c c c c c
James · · · · · p · · · q q c c c c c
I Peter · c · c · c c c · c c c c c c c
II Peter · · · · · · · · · q q c c c · c
I John · c · c · c c c c c c c c c c c
II John · · · · · c · · c q q c c x · c
III John · c · · · · · · · q q c c x · c
Jude · · · · · · c c c c q c c c · c
Revelation of John · · · c c c c c c c c s c c c · c
Gospel of Thomas · · · · · · · · · x x · · · · ·
Gospel of Truth · · · c · x · · · · · · · · · ·
Gospel of the Twelve · · · · · · · · · x · · · · · ·
Gospel of Peter · · · · · · · · · q x · · · · ·
Gospel of Basilides · · · · · · · · x x · · · · · ·
Gospel of the Egyptians · · · · · · c · · x · · · · · ·
Gospel of the Hebrews · · · · · · c · · q s · · · · ·
Gospel of Matthias · · · · · · · · · x x · · · · ·
Traditions of Matthias · · · · · · c · · · · · · · · ·
Preaching of Peter · · · c · · c · · x · · · · · ·
Acts of Andrew · · · · · · · · · · x · · · · ·
Acts of Paul · · · · · · · x · q s · · · · ·
Acts of John · · · · · · · · · · x · · · · ·
Epistle to the Laodiceans · · · · · · · · q · · · · · · p
I Clement · · · · · c c · · q · · · c · ·
Epistle of Barnabas · · · · · · c · · q s c · c · ·
Didache · · · · · · c · · q s · q c · ·
Shepherd of Hermas · · · · · c c q q q s q c q c · ·
Apocalypse of Peter · · · · · · c · c · s · · · · ·
Ig Po M Va JM Ir C T MC O E CS A D P V

http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml

One has to ask why these men of god, inspired by god couldn't come to an agreement until hundreds of years, almost 10 generations, after Jesus.

[Word_Swordsman]

My reference to Satan being the bogeyman for all that ails Christian fundies is well founded, historically, and in what I have seen in some of these forums.

So you're saying a Christian don't want his hand back, but like daedalus said, what about those born with malformed limbs? I know a kid about 16 years old now who has a malformed arm, real shorter than the other, and he would love to have it healed. He used to pray for it to get healed before church every Sunday, and then some. He's a good kid, never caused no one any harm, why can't he get healed?

See here's the thing. I wager you will say the kid either don't believe strong enough, God don't want to heal him, Or Satan is preventing it. So which is it and lets go from there.

Not having been praying for folks in a "healing line" having such victims present doesn't help me discuss the whys and wherefores. In my experience someone coming to a Christian service presenting a malformed arm hasn't happened yet, and I'd say that would be a rare appearance. But i have been in on some fantastic healings that followed prayers. In Louisiana a wonderful elderly Christian lady had been blind for 20 years due to macular degeneration. She had too many holes in her retinas to even say she had a retina. She had become accustomed to blindness, having plenty of folks helping her. After hearing a great sermon on hope she realized she had given up hope of seeing again, explaining why faith seemed to fail for that. She stood and testified she once again had great hope to see before dying. She regained sight that night. Her doctor examined her, finding no change in the retinas, highly amazed she could see anyway. The doctor called that a "medical phenomenon". We called it a miracle.

In another church we attended there was a pitiful mother-daughter pair of crippled rheumatoid arthritis sufferers in wheelchairs. The teen girl had spent her life in a wheelchair, her body distorted so badly anyone seeing her had to turn away. She had to have equipment to permit breathing. The mother attended a Benny Hinn crusade in Little Rock, AR and walked away healed before the meeting even began. The next night she brought her daughter on the church bus, the daughter walking away healed. Hinn had been preaching about having hope no matter what is being experienced, and coupling that hope with faith. Hope came from readings of the word of God, and faith took hold in both of them. Without those two prerequisites no healing happens. The same held true for Jesus and the sick He encountered.

Any healing ought to be expected when meeting God's demands for healing. One cannot just wish for a healing. It doesn't impress God to go around saying "I know God could heal me, but for some reason He won't." "Yeah, I know God is able, but He works in mysterious ways.". "I guess I didn't get healed because God couldn't get any glory out my healing." "God let this happen to humble me." None of that is a demonstration of biblical hope or faith, but those are the kinds of answers people often offer to God. Praying for healing doesn't work if there is no real hope, which if there will be "preached" by the victim. At some point the one meeting God's demands will act on faith and do something only possible after having received that which is hoped for.

[byofrcs]

My reference to Satan being the bogeyman for all that ails Christian fundies is well founded, historically, and in what I have seen in some of these forums.

So you're saying a Christian don't want his hand back, but like daedalus said, what about those born with malformed limbs? I know a kid about 16 years old now who has a malformed arm, real shorter than the other, and he would love to have it healed. He used to pray for it to get healed before church every Sunday, and then some. He's a good kid, never caused no one any harm, why can't he get healed?

See here's the thing. I wager you will say the kid either don't believe strong enough, God don't want to heal him, Or Satan is preventing it. So which is it and lets go from there.

Not having been praying for folks in a "healing line" having such victims present doesn't help me discuss the whys and wherefores. In my experience someone coming to a Christian service presenting a malformed arm hasn't happened yet, and I'd say that would be a rare appearance. But i have been in on some fantastic healings that followed prayers. In Louisiana a wonderful elderly Christian lady had been blind for 20 years due to macular degeneration. She had too many holes in her retinas to even say she had a retina. She had become accustomed to blindness, having plenty of folks helping her. After hearing a great sermon on hope she realized she had given up hope of seeing again, explaining why faith seemed to fail for that. She stood and testified she once again had great hope to see before dying. She regained sight that night. Her doctor examined her, finding no change in the retinas, highly amazed she could see anyway. The doctor called that a "medical phenomenon". We called it a miracle.

In another church we attended there was a pitiful mother-daughter pair of crippled rheumatoid arthritis sufferers in wheelchairs. The teen girl had spent her life in a wheelchair, her body distorted so badly anyone seeing her had to turn away. She had to have equipment to permit breathing. The mother attended a Benny Hinn crusade in Little Rock, AR and walked away healed before the meeting even began. The next night she brought her daughter on the church bus, the daughter walking away healed. Hinn had been preaching about having hope no matter what is being experienced, and coupling that hope with faith. Hope came from readings of the word of God, and faith took hold in both of them. Without those two prerequisites no healing happens. The same held true for Jesus and the sick He encountered.

Any healing ought to be expected when meeting God's demands for healing. One cannot just wish for a healing. It doesn't impress God to go around saying "I know God could heal me, but for some reason He won't." "Yeah, I know God is able, but He works in mysterious ways.". "I guess I didn't get healed because God couldn't get any glory out my healing." "God let this happen to humble me." None of that is a demonstration of biblical hope or faith, but those are the kinds of answers people often offer to God. Praying for healing doesn't work if there is no real hope, which if there will be "preached" by the victim. At some point the one meeting God's demands will act on faith and do something only possible after having received that which is hoped for.

OK, a reality check is needed here.

Lets look at the facts (I'll use US figures though any country will do),

We all know of RA sufferers and we know it predominantly affects the small joints. It is very unusual to see spinal deformations except in the very old. Certainly breathing support is even odder.

RA affects over a million Americans and affects around 100,000 new cases per annum. Global 1st world market size is 5 million people. Oops sorry, that's victims.

Around 1.7 MILLION people over 65 in the US have some form of Macular Degeneration and globally its over 25 million people.

Think about that number. Are they all atheists ?, are they secular ? People over 65 in the US are probably just good Christian folk especially given "Atheism" and "Secularism" are claimed to be recent phenomena.

Now we all know about spontaneous recoveries. The body is quite amazing what it has evolved to cope with the quite crappy environment that we are surrounded by. If in a study 1 in 10,000 recovered whilst on placebos then that wouldn't even be noticed.

You have only quoted 1 person in 1.7 million. It's not that God is a bit cautious, its that the human body does 100 to 1000 times better just by thinking about it WITHOUT prayer !.

It's not that prayer is competing with the placebo effect: prayer is competing with statistical noise !. God is like a gnat fart in a storm.

Now we're all very happy with this 1 in a million but anyone with a shred of common sense would say that prayer is a waste of time and that many more people could be helped through supporting medical methods or helping with lifestyle.

It is like the supermarket tabloids: we question the claim of what we are told because it is not trustworthy and no attempt is made to create trust.