Legislating religion

Two hot topics for the price of one

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4gold
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Legislating religion

Post #1

Post by 4gold »

Where did we get this notion that legislating religion is unconstitutional?

After the First Amendment was ratified, 8 of the 13 states levied and collected taxes to support an official state church. This practice continued until the early 1800s, not because the Courts struck it down, but because the People of the States no longer wanted to support an official state church.

Members of the first Congress that ratified the First Amendment voted to appoint and pay a chaplain to pray before each House.

Throughout the US's history, the courts have upheld religious laws, such as:

Congress may pay a chaplain to pray before the sessions, even if one denomination is clearly favored over all the others (Marsh v Chambers)

Taxpayers have no standing to sue against taxpayer-funded faith-based initiatives (Hein v Freedom from Religion)

Taxpayers have no standing to sue on government surpluses given to religious charities without regard to other secular charities (Valley Forge Christian College v Americans United for Separation of Church and State)

Also known as the two-reindeer rule, taxpayers may fund Nativity Scenes, so long as there are secular items displayed with the Nativity (Lynch v Donnelly)

Tax-exemptions for religious organizations are Constitutional (Walz v Tax Comm'n of the City of New York)

A law that "harmonizes with religious canons" is not inherently unconstitutional (McGowan v Maryland)

I could go on and on with historical examples, as well as Court precedent, but I think you get the idea. I have no idea where the concept that religious law is a violation of the First Amendment came from, but it lacks historical context, as well as judicial precedent.

In fact, I'd argue quite the opposite! The First Amendment allows for religious legislations, so long as the receptor of the law is an adult, and therefore not susceptible to religious indoctrination (Tilton v Richardson) or enforced on others via peer pressure (Abington v Schemp). The majority of First Amendment cases have dealt with schools, because children are more susceptible to religious indoctrination, and so the Courts have protected them from government-enforced religion. But adults are certainly not exempt from government-enforced religious laws!

The most common rebuttal I get to this argument is, "I won't enforce my morality on you, so don't enforce your morality on me." This is a fine argument, but it is completely unenforceable, unless we lived in an anarchy! If every federal spending bill had to be within the confines of the moral codes of all 300 million Americans, nothing would get done!

So my questions for debate are the following:
  • What would be acceptable religious laws?
  • What should the Constitutional limits on religious laws be?
  • Even though religious laws are Constitutional, they are not necessary. Should we even legislate our religious values?
  • How is anyone harmed by viewing a Ten Commandments display, or listening to a prayer before Congress, or seeing a Nativity scene?
  • Would an ideal society be pluralistic or secular?

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Vladd44
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Post #11

Post by Vladd44 »

4gold wrote:What would be acceptable religious laws?
A law making all places of worship parking lots?
4gold wrote:What should the Constitutional limits on religious laws be?
Limited to limiting religion and it's influence.
4gold wrote:Even though religious laws are Constitutional, they are not necessary. Should we even legislate our religious values?
I have no religious values to legislate, so by default. NO.
4gold wrote:How is anyone harmed by viewing a Ten Commandments display, or listening to a prayer before Congress, or seeing a Nativity scene?
Personally I have never been harmed by any of the three. But in McCulloch's comments he raised a very legitimate point.
McCulloch wrote:They are excluded. If the Ten Commandments are displayed in a court of justice, it symbolizes the false notion that our laws are based on religious values. It might even bias a jury against the non-religious.
You could argue that it might not, but that is no excuse for potentially tainting a jury. There are many procedures and stipulations in our judicial system that exist specifically to stop tainting of a jury.

But back to personally, I suffer no more harm listening to a prayer than someone listening to pigs being slaughtered with country music in the background. I am sure it doesn't qualify as torture to deal with it for 30 seconds, but a few hours might be another matter.
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Post #12

Post by 4gold »

Vladd44 wrote:A law making all places of worship parking lots?
This would be unconstitutional.
Vladd44 wrote:Limited to limiting religion and it's influence.
This would also be unconstitutional.
Vladd44 wrote:Personally I have never been harmed by any of the three. But in McCulloch's comments he raised a very legitimate point.
McCulloch wrote:They are excluded. If the Ten Commandments are displayed in a court of justice, it symbolizes the false notion that our laws are based on religious values. It might even bias a jury against the non-religious.
No one is harmed by these displays. Symbolic injury does not hold up in a court of law.

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Post #13

Post by Vladd44 »

Sorry. I took acceptable as what would be acceptable to the only entity I can speak for. Myself.

In that sense, parking lots instead of churches is acceptable. Do I want the government to start hiring contractors to do the job? No.
McCulloch wrote:They are excluded. If the Ten Commandments are displayed in a court of justice, it symbolizes the false notion that our laws are based on religious values. It might even bias a jury against the non-religious.
4gold wrote:No one is harmed by these displays. Symbolic injury does not hold up in a court of law.
Making a jury biased could most definitely harm someone of a different faith being judged by them.

Would you object to a 6ft explicit image of two grandparents discovering Viagra and its wonders being displayed in these settings instead?

Or a swastika?

Perhaps an hindu idol?

None of these things would "harm" anyone.
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Post #14

Post by 4gold »

Vladd44 wrote:Making a jury biased could most definitely harm someone of a different faith being judged by them.

Would you object to a 6ft explicit image of two grandparents discovering Viagra and its wonders being displayed in these settings instead?

Or a swastika?

Perhaps an hindu idol?

None of these things would "harm" anyone.
No, I would not support any of those displays, but if the People wanted them, I don't see how they would be unconstitutional. I do not support a Ten Commandments display, either, but I do not think it is unconstitutional.

We can speak in hypotheticals about biased juries influenced by Ten Commandment displays, but has that ever happened? The Supreme Court building has religious displays on it...has the Supreme Court ever referred to its displays in order to bias one of its decisions?

I don't think the displays have ever harmed anyone.

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Post #15

Post by Goat »

4gold wrote:
Vladd44 wrote:A law making all places of worship parking lots?
This would be unconstitutional.
Vladd44 wrote:Limited to limiting religion and it's influence.
This would also be unconstitutional.
Vladd44 wrote:Personally I have never been harmed by any of the three. But in McCulloch's comments he raised a very legitimate point.
McCulloch wrote:They are excluded. If the Ten Commandments are displayed in a court of justice, it symbolizes the false notion that our laws are based on religious values. It might even bias a jury against the non-religious.
No one is harmed by these displays. Symbolic injury does not hold up in a court of law.
Yes, people are harmed by this law. When you have a stone monument to the 10 commandments, and not in any other historical context, you have a situation where the government is promoting one religion over another. This is unconstitutional. It is saying to those people that are not of that faith that they are going to be treated as second class citizens in that particular court of law.

In the context that Judge Moore did, it was unconstitutional under their state Constitution. Their state court decided that.

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Post #16

Post by r~ »

4gold wrote: We can speak in hypotheticals about biased juries influenced by Ten Commandment displays, but has that ever happened? The Supreme Court building has religious displays on it...has the Supreme Court ever referred to its displays in order to bias one of its decisions? I don't think the displays have ever harmed anyone.
Anyone ever convicted under vice law has been harmed by the Ten Commandments. But then again I will bet you don't find that unconstitutional either.

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Beto

Post #17

Post by Beto »

How does a "Thou shalt not kill" paraded in a court not influence a jury in a self-defense killing case? "The jury will ignore the commandment as this case is exceptional"...? Who decides if it's "murder" or "kill" written up there?

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Post #18

Post by 4gold »

Beto wrote:How does a "Thou shalt not kill" paraded in a court not influence a jury in a self-defense killing case? "The jury will ignore the commandment as this case is exceptional"...? Who decides if it's "murder" or "kill" written up there?
If you have an example of a jury who was biased because of a Ten Commandments display, I'm all ears.

I would think most people would be against murder before they ever stepped foot into a courtroom.

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Post #19

Post by 4gold »

goat wrote: you have a situation where the government is promoting one religion over another. This is unconstitutional.
How so?

Doesn't prayer to the Judeo-Christian God promote one religion over another? Yet, this has been ruled Constitutional.

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Post #20

Post by 4gold »

r~ wrote:Anyone ever convicted under vice law has been harmed by the Ten Commandments. But then again I will bet you don't find that unconstitutional either.

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r~
What is vice law? What does it have to do with Ten Commandment displays?

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