The free will theodicy fails biblically

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

I have been trying to get at the foundational claims of Christianity, and started with the Adam and Eve narrative.

After making over a dozen arguments on that topic, I feel that I should take a break and offer something new... And the idea of free will comes up over and over in the arguments from Christians in defence of God's behaviour over what is sometimes called " the fruit incident " or more commonly, "the fall of man".

The free-will theodicy attempts to explain why God permits evil.

It argues God permits evil because humans possess free will and genuine choices require the possibility of wrongdoing.
If free will isn't real, then the free will theodicy fails.

I would also add that free will is never mentioned in the bible. If free will is so important to the god as to justify creating and allowing evil in our world, I find that to be a truly troubling omission.
The bible doesn't once mention such an important concept, and in fact, shows that the God actually violates people's will.. that's the opposite of promoting free will....
I am using the libertarian idea of free will because thats the kind Christians use:

Libertarian free will is the ability to choose between alternatives such that the choice is not entirely determined by prior causes or conditions.

The Bible portrays God hardening hearts, determining events, and fulfilling purposes, undermining the claim that libertarian free will is essential to God’s plan.
If you need bible references for those claims, just ask. I don't add them all here because the list is too long. Please, don't ask me to list them all in one shot. Just ask when it's relevant to your argument.

The Argument:

P1: The Bible never explicitly establishes libertarian free will as a necessary feature of human agency.
P2: The Bible repeatedly portrays God hardening hearts and determining human actions.
P3: Christian free-will theodicy depends on libertarian free will to explain why God permits evil.
C: Therefore, Christian free-will theodicy fails biblically.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

The Bible never explicitly says God determines the actions of humans, or that what humans did, was not their free will choice.

I found over 20 verses that demonstrate otherwise.

In the verses, it is possible that the choices people make, are free will choices. I believe God can influence on circumstances, and those can lead to certain results, but what people do, they do by their own free will choice.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #11]

Me: P2: The Bible repeatedly portrays God hardening hearts and determining human actions.

You: The Bible never explicitly says God determines the actions of humans, or that what humans did, was not their free will choice.

Me: I found over 20 verses that demonstrate otherwise.

You: In the verses, it is possible that the choices people make, are free will choices. I believe God can influence on circumstances, and those can lead to certain results, but what people do, they do by their own free will choice.

__________________________________

Moving the goalposts happens when we change the criteria for accepting an argument after those criteria have already been met.

You just went from the assertion that " Bible never explicitly says God determines the actions of humans, or that what humans did, was not their free will choice " to " it is possible that the choices people make are free will choices "

We have been debating the possibility of God allowing for humans to have free will choices all along.

Sure, why not.
It's possible.

We agree that it's possible that God allows free will. So, you don't have to make a case that it's possible. We already agree that it is.

Right now, we do not agree that it's true. Make a case for why it's true, not for why it's possible.

Lets not move the goalposts from God allows free will to God possibly allows free will

If your actual argument was that God allows free will is POSSIBLE, then our debate is resolved and we both agree.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #7]

In light of your thread on how interpretation isn't identical with what is being interpreted, which was a great point, I propose that you support these interpretations for determinism against libertarian free will. We can go one at a time, so you and us readers aren't overwhelmed. You can start with whatever you think is the strongest verse in your case.

[1213]

...You just went from the assertion that " Bible never explicitly says God determines the actions of humans, or that what humans did, was not their free will choice "

And I think the assertion is still true. I don't think Bible explicitly says God determines the actions of humans. Or, was there scriptures that explicitly says so?

For example you gave the 1. Proverbs 16:9 “A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”

That says, God directs steps, not that God determines. God giving directions is not the same as determining.

I believe all decision humans make are by free will. That is why people are also always responsible for their own actions. If not, then we could not judge anyone, for example for crimes. Or we could not thank someone who has done something good.