The soul and the eternal soul

[Ross]

Here I am to learn about a Bible topic that I admittedly have never studied in any depth. I am bringing no pre conceived views; and I will base my conclusion upon the evidence provided. Please help me to understand this.

Firstly what is the soul of a man or woman?

Secondly, do other creatures have this?

And thirdly does Bible scripture give any indication that the soul lives on after death and or is immortal?

[Capbook]

Maybe I can request you for another verse that support that soul "cannot be killed by man".

Revelation 6: 9-11
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

I colored blue above the "souls" and "slain" and others, yes, they were not killed by man, and also they were not killed by the second death opposed to your another stand.
The "fellow servants, their brothers and sisters" are living souls (Gen 2:7) no mentioned of who killed them, and also they were not killed by the second death, again opposed to your stand that only second death can kill the soul.
Not an excellent context to support your two interpretation.
Any other verse? I'm afraid you are left nothing.

[Ross]

Maybe I can request you for another verse that support that soul "cannot be killed by man".

Revelation 6: 9-11
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

yes, they were not killed by man, and also they were not killed by the second death opposed to your another stand.
The "fellow servants, their brothers and sisters" are living souls (Gen 2:7) no mentioned of who killed them, and also they were not killed by the second death, again opposed to your stand that only second death can kill the soul.
Not an excellent context to support your two interpretation.
Any other verse? I'm afraid you are left nothing.

As well as denying clear and emphatic words of Jesus, and having no explanation of them, are you now dismissing the Revelation, or do you not understand it's clear words? Your Bible commentaries and dictionaries will universally attest to the understanding that this is referring to under the altar in heaven featuring Christian Martyrs put to death by man for their faithful witness.

And it doesn't say "the souls who had been slain". It says "the souls of those who had been slain". Check any interlinear or lexicon you wish. Those souls are alive having passed through death and are speaking. And this is prior to the ressurrection.

[Capbook]

Maybe I can request you for another verse that support that soul "cannot be killed by man".

Revelation 6: 9-11
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

yes, they were not killed by man, and also they were not killed by the second death opposed to your another stand.
The "fellow servants, their brothers and sisters" are living souls (Gen 2:7) no mentioned of who killed them, and also they were not killed by the second death, again opposed to your stand that only second death can kill the soul.
Not an excellent context to support your two interpretation.
Any other verse? I'm afraid you are left nothing.

As well as denying clear and emphatic words of Jesus, and having no explanation of them, are you now dismissing the Revelation, or do you not understand it's clear words? Your Bible commentaries and dictionaries will universally attest to the understanding that this is referring to under the altar in heaven featuring Christian Martyrs put to death by man for their faithful witness.

And it doesn't say "the souls who had been slain". It says "the souls of those who had been slain". Check any interlinear or lexicon you wish. Those souls are alive having passed through death and are speaking. And this is prior to the ressurrection.

If I remember it right, these are the two interpretation you present;
1. soul cannot be killed by man,
2. only the second death can kill the soul.

It seems I see inconsistencies with your statement above I colored blue;
1. "Christian martyrs put to death by man" - Christian martyrs before death are living souls (Gen 2:7) killed by man.
2. "Prior to resurrection" - is prior to resurrection means before or after judgement of the second death?

[Ross]

If I remember it right, these are the two interpretation you present;
1. soul cannot be killed by man,
2. only the second death can kill the soul.

WRONG. NOT MY INTERPRETATION. THEY ARE THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST.

It seems I see inconsistencies with your statement above I colored blue;
1. "Christian martyrs put to death by man" - Christian martyrs before death are living souls (Gen 2:7) killed by man.

Don't you believe in progressive revelation? Shouldn't we give the explanations of The Lord and the Christian Greek scriptures precedence over what was partially revealed centuries earlier? This is why you believe in the trinity isn't it?
Hang on to a verse in the first book of the Bible for dear life if you have to.

2. "Prior to resurrection" - is prior to resurrection means before or after judgement of the second death?

The resurrection is to Judgement of everlasting life or second death is it not?

And how is it that John in his vision from The Lord of Lords, also divides those slain as separate from their souls?

Did you check the Koine' Greek and your lexicons that establish this fact?

And how is it that those faithful Christian martyrs who had been killed at the hands of persecutors were conscious and speaking?

[Capbook]

If I remember it right, these are the two interpretation you present;
1. soul cannot be killed by man,
2. only the second death can kill the soul.

WRONG. NOT MY INTERPRETATION. THEY ARE THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST.

It seems I see inconsistencies with your statement above I colored blue;
1. "Christian martyrs put to death by man" - Christian martyrs before death are living souls (Gen 2:7) killed by man.

Don't you believe in progressive revelation? Shouldn't we give the explanations of The Lord and the Christian Greek scriptures precedence over what was partially revealed centuries earlier? This is why you believe in the trinity isn't it?
Hang on to a verse in the first book of the Bible for dear life if you have to.

2. "Prior to resurrection" - is prior to resurrection means before or after judgement of the second death?

The resurrection is to Judgement of everlasting life or second death is it not?

And how is it that John in his vision from The Lord of Lords, also divides those slain as separate from their souls?

Did you check the Koine' Greek and your lexicons that establish this fact?

And how is it that those faithful Christian martyrs who had been killed at the hands of persecutors were conscious and speaking?

A quote from someone, said, "once you read a verse, if you do not apply any interpretation, I'm afraid you are just reading your own assumptions and preconceptions without knowing it"

Yes, I believe on progressive revelation, but what I was to point out was from your statement, "Christian martyrs put to death by man".
And yes, I root my definition of "living soul" in Genesis, as Bible lexicon below define "soul" in Hebrew "נפשׁ nephesh" as the man himself, living being, life, person, individual, living being (with life in the blood) etc.

H5315 (Brown-Driver-Briggs)
נפשׁ nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual

Yes, the resurrection is judgement of everlasting life or second death. But my question to your statement "prior to resurrection" do that mean before resurrection? I just want to be sure.

[Ross]

Yes, the resurrection is judgement of everlasting life or second death. But my question to your statement "prior to resurrection" do that mean before resurrection? I just want to be sure.

The verses explain that Christian martyrs were still being slain, and that the time of judgement had not yet arrived in the timeframe of the statements, so to that I believe there can be no doubt.

As for interpretation of scripture that is plainly and unambiguously written in Greek or English, I see a lot of attempts in this forum to 'explain away' such scripture because it doesn't fit with pre-conceptions.

Once again you were unable to answer my questions so I see this as going no further. But thanks for the discussion.

[Capbook]

Yes, the resurrection is judgement of everlasting life or second death. But my question to your statement "prior to resurrection" do that mean before resurrection? I just want to be sure.

The verses explain that Christian martyrs were still being slain, and that the time of judgement had not yet arrived in the timeframe of the statements, so to that I believe there can be no doubt.

Thanks, so, no second death yet but they were still being slain.

As for interpretation of scripture that is plainly and unambiguously written in Greek or English, I see a lot of attempts in this forum to 'explain away' such scripture because it doesn't fit with pre-conceptions.

No, not pre-conception because the basis of my belief of "living soul" Biblically rooted on Gen 2:7.

Once again you were unable to answer my questions so I see this as going no further. But thanks for the discussion.

Yes, some believe on eternal soul and some do not, as far as Matt 10:28 as proof text in question, supposedly it must be supported by other verses. I see that we agree to disagree with that.
Thanks then.

[FruitoftheSpirit]

...I believe the support is in looking at the Hebrew word sited below. When referencing man, most translators used the word "soul", however when referencing whales, fish, birds, land animals translators used "creature". YLT is one translation that did use "creature" for both man and animals.

nep̄eš
neh'-fesh
soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

I like to use the website Bible Study Tools and click on scripture settings and choose "strongs numbers" where you can then click on any blue word within the text and the original Hebrew or Greek word will pop up in a new window....

Thank you!

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

What do you think, is spirit and soul the same thing?

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, And the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Eccl. 12:7

In scripture soul and spirit are often used in the same way, reflecting that which is of the mind. Also, soul represents living being which is to have breath and spirit has the meaning of breath.

OT/Hebrew soul - nep̄eš self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

OT/Hebrew spirit - rûaḥ wind, breath, mind, spirit

Several translations in Eccl 12:7 have ruah as breath or the breath of life which I believe is the accurate translation given the context, just as we see it in other scriptures like that of Psalms 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" and Ezekiel 37:5 "Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live".

I tend to see soul primarily as one's life, the life that they have lived and are living, which thus is why we see application to the mind, to which one's mind is their spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I define the above as,

spirit - mind with it's thoughts and abilities to control emotions and deny temptations, that which has the power to make decisions.
soul - your personal life to which has been shaped by your actions - words and works you have done by the choices your mind/spirit has made.
body - body -that which you have done or not done with it through your actions (no fornication, drunkenness, etc)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to FruitoftheSpirit in post #68]

Spirit = one's mental inclinations OR the breath that God gives a person to make that person a living being. It is not some conscious ethereal part of us that departs at death.

Soul = Everything about a living being, their body (but not JUST the body) and the things that make that individual who or what it is. Animals are called "souls" in the Scriptures as well. It is not immortal, as there are dead souls as well as living ones.

Body = the vessel that we and animals are given to carry out our lives. It is not the same as the soul, because a body can be devoid of anything that makes it a unique living being.

[1213]

...
spirit - mind with it's thoughts and abilities to control emotions and deny temptations, that which has the power to make decisions.
soul - your personal life to which has been shaped by your actions - words and works you have done by the choices your mind/spirit has made.
body - body -that which you have done or not done with it through your actions (no fornication, drunkenness, etc)

Interesting, I think spirit is more like an attitude, soul is the persona or mind and body is where the soul can exist.