Do other religions have any notion of suffering being for good?

[Wootah]

Do other religions have any notion of suffering being for good?

Christianity seems to be clear that God uses suffering for our good. Do other religions have any notion of this? How do they handle suffering?

[RugMatic]

Do other religions have any notion of suffering being for good?

Christianity seems to be clear that God uses suffering for our good. Do other religions have any notion of this? How do they handle suffering?

Buddhists consider suffering to be the means of stretching the heart so that empathy is possible. Muslims consider suffering to be a virtue. Jihad means to suffer, struggle, strain.

The only religion I'm aware of that frowns on suffering is charismatic Christians who believe in health and wealth spirituality.

[Tcg]

Do other religions have any notion of suffering being for good?

Christianity seems to be clear that God uses suffering for our good. Do other religions have any notion of this? How do they handle suffering?

Buddhists consider suffering to be the means of stretching the heart so that empathy is possible. Muslims consider suffering to be a virtue. Jihad means to suffer, struggle, strain.

The only religion I'm aware of that frowns on suffering is charismatic Christians who believe in health and wealth spirituality.

A slight clarification. Charismatic Christianity is not a religion, it is a branch of the religion called Christianity, and they aren't the only branch that teaches this. This is yet another area that Christianity can't reach agreement on.

So, as to the O.P., no Christianity is not clear on this.


Tcg

[Wootah]

Do other religions have any notion of suffering being for good?

Christianity seems to be clear that God uses suffering for our good. Do other religions have any notion of this? How do they handle suffering?

Buddhists consider suffering to be the means of stretching the heart so that empathy is possible. Muslims consider suffering to be a virtue. Jihad means to suffer, struggle, strain.

The only religion I'm aware of that frowns on suffering is charismatic Christians who believe in health and wealth spirituality.

I thought buddhists were avoiding suffering at all costs?

I don't think Jihadists consider suffering a virtue, struggle sure, but the point there is to make the other person suffer.

[A Freeman]

On the topic of "self" sacrifice (learning to crucify the ego/"self" DAILY):


Bible: New Covenant/Testament

Matthew 10:37-38
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter (or anyone or anything) more than me is not worthy of me.
10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth Him that sent me.
10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Matthew 16:24-26
16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 8:34-35
8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny his "Self", and take up his cross, and follow me.
8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:23-25
9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 14:26-27
14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own (human) life also, he can NOT be my disciple.
14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, can NOT be my disciple.

Thomas 6:9 Jesus said: When you take off your shame without being ashamed, and take your clothes (bodies) and put them under your feet as the little children and tread on them, then shall you behold the Son of the Living One and you shall not fear.

Galatians 2:20 My "Self" is crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (the "Self"), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


The Koran/Quran

Sura 6:162. Say: "Truly, my prayer and my (daily) service of "Self" sacrifice (Luke 9:23; 14:26-27), my life (of selflessness) and my death (to "Self"), are (all) for "I AM", the Cherisher of the Worlds:

Sura 92:18-21
92:18. Those who spend their wealth for increase in "self"-purification,
92:19. And have in their minds no favour to anyone for which a reward is expected in return,
92:20. But only the desire to seek for the Countenance of their Lord Most High;
92:21. And soon will they attain (complete) satisfaction.


The Bhagavad Gita

Chapter 3 - Karma-yoga
3:10 In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods (spirit-Beings/Prophets – Amos 3:7, Rev. 10:7), along with sacrifices for Viṣṇu (“self” sacrifce – Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:20, Sura 6:162), and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajña [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you all desirable things (Exod. 12:25-27)."

Chapter 8 - Attaining the Supreme
8:28 A person who accepts the path of devotional service is not bereft of the results derived from studying the Vedas, performing austere sacrifices (Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:20, Sura 6:162), giving charity or pursuing philosophical and fruitive activities. At the end he reaches the supreme abode.

Chapter 12 - Devotional Service
12:9 My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth (Matt. 5:3), if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulated principles of bhakti-yoga [loving adoration through the keeping of the Commandments (John 14:15, Rev. 12:17) and daily “self” crucifixion - Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Gal. 2:20, Sura 6:162]. In this way you will develop a desire to attain to Me.

Chapter 16 - The Divine and Demoniac Natures (the Spirit/Soul and the Flesh)
16:1 The Blessed Lord said: Fearlessness, purification of one's existence (Matt. 5:48), cultivation of spiritual knowledge (Hos. 4:6), charity (Matt. 6:1-4), self-control (1 Cor. 9:27), performance of sacrifice (Luke 9:23), study of the Vedas (Ps. 1), austerity and simplicity; nonviolence (Luke 6:29), truthfulness, freedom from anger ([url=https://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/51james.htm#1_19]James 1:19);

Chapter 18 - The Perfection of Renunciation
18:66 ABANDON ALL VARIETIES OF RELIGION (Enoch 104:8; Jer. 23:1-6; Ezek. 34:1-10, 23; Matt. 6:5-8; Matt. 7:21-27; Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24; Rev. 2:20-23; Rev. 18:4; Sura 7:55; Sura 9:107-111) and just surrender unto Me (Matt. 23:8-10; Luke 9:23; John 10:7-11; 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 6:20; Sura 3:45-55; Sura 43:57-61). I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction (John 1:29; Rev. 1:5). Do not fear (1 John 4:18).


The Diamond Sutra

Preface:

Daniel 2:31-35
2:31 Thou, O king, (Nebuchadnezzar) sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible.
2:32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
2:34 Thou sawest till that a "Stone" was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them (the successive empires - Rev. 6:13-17) to pieces.
2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the "Stone" that smote the image became a great "mountain", and filled the whole earth.

THE "STONE" IS A DIAMOND - no other stone is indestructible and can grind metal to powder or reflect and give out Light of great beauty and intensity like Christ (the Light of the world - John 8:3).

A “Sutra” is literally a thread, used to connect the reader to the rule of Law governing all spiritual Beings and all of creation, given to us by our Creator in His Book: The Bible.

The full Sanskrit title of this text is the Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra (The Vajra Prajna Paramita Sutra). The Buddha (The Enlightened/Awakened One – The Messiah/Christ) said this Sutra may be known as "The Diamond that Cuts through Illusion".

-------

Chapter 6. Awaken Faith
"Subhuti, any person who awakens faith upon hearing the words or phrases of this Sutra will accumulate countless blessings and merit (Deut. 28:1-14).

"How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self (Luke 9:23, Sura 6:162), of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts.

Chapter 17. All Dharmas Are Non-Dharmas
At that time, the venerable Subhuti then asked the Buddha, "World-Honored One, may I ask you a question again? If sons or daughters of a good family want to develop the highest, most fulfilled and awakened mind, if they wish to attain the Highest Perfect Wisdom, what should they do to help quiet their drifting minds and master their thinking (Mark 10:17-23)?"

The Buddha replied:

"Subhuti, a good son or daughter who wants to give rise to the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind must create this resolved attitude of mind: 'I must help to lead all beings to the shore of awakening, but, after these beings have become liberated, in truth I know that not even a single being has been liberated (John 3:13).' Why is this so? If a disciple cherishes the idea of a self, a person, a living being or a universal self, then that person is NOT an authentic disciple (Matt. 10:37-38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:26-27, Gal. 2:20, Sura 6:162, Sura 92:18-21). Why? Because in fact there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind.

[Wootah]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #5]

Not quite. Many false religions bash the self.

I am talking about suffering being for good.

Any religion with karma does not have this notion because to suffer is to have bad karma.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #5]

Not quite. Many false religions bash the self.

I am talking about suffering being for good.

Any religion with karma does not have this notion because to suffer is to have bad karma.

ALL organized religion is FALSE, which is why it and its priests, pastors, rabbis and imams, etc. have repeatedly been condemned throughout Scripture.

The Coming Destruction of All Organized Religion

ALL "self" sacrifice and all suffering is redemptive: to teach the individual or to be used to raise and help others.

"It is NOT I That Lives"

Karma, aka "just desserts" or "sowing and reaping", is the PERFECT reward and punishment system for the actions/deeds of each soul, on its path through each of its successive human lifetimes. By definition, karma is described in the following way:

karma (noun)
kär′mə
• The totality of a person’s actions and conduct during successive incarnations, regarded as causally influencing his or her destiny.
• The law or principle through which such influence is believed to operate.
• Fate or destiny resulting from one’s previous actions.

Because the business of organized religions has been used to capitalize (£££/$$$/€€€, etc.) on differences in sectarian beliefs, “Western religions” (e.g. Talmudic Judaism, Christianity and Islam) promote the LIE that karma isn’t scriptural. Put another way, according to the priests, pastors, rabbis and imams, etc., and most of the so-called scholars and experts, karma supposedly isn’t found in the Old Covenant/Testament, New Covenant/Testament or in the Koran/Quran.

Instead of relying on the spiritually blind “paid” professionals, who don't know what they're talking about (Matt. 6:24; Matt. 15:13-14), why not examine what our Creator has actually shared on this subject, which has no association whatsoever with ANY organized religion? Karma and reincarnation are basic, universal principles that are inexorably linked and undoubtedly part of our reality (Sura 31:28-30).

Reincarnation Is An Irrefutable Fact

Karma Is An Irrefutable Fact

Deuteronomy 28 (excerpts below)

28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the “I AM” thy God, to observe [and] to do all His Commandments which I command thee this day, that the “I AM” thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
28:2 And ALL THESE BLESSINGS shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the “I AM” thy God.

(verses 3-14 list the blessings/rewards for good behaviour)

28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the “I AM” thy God, to observe to do all His Commandments and His Statutes which I command thee this day; that ALL THESE CURSES [of the Law] shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

(verses 16-68 list the curses/punishments for bad behaviour)

Job 4:7-8
4:7 Remember, I pray thee, who [ever] perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?
4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow inequity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

Psalm 7:15-16
7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch [which] he made.
7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Proverbs 11:27 He that diligently seeketh good procureth favour: but he that seeketh mischief, it shall come unto him.


On the British Coat-of-Arms, the belt surrounding the shield; with which the people were to gird up their loins with great strength; has written on it, “Honi soit qui mal y pense”.

“Honi soit qui mal y pense” is Old French and it is one of God’s rules concerning His advice and Perfect Karma/Divine-Justice and means “Evil be to him who thinks it”.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for THIS is The Law and the Prophets (see: Matthew 5:17-20).

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

John 3:20-21
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest his deeds should be revealed.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in The Temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: SIN NO MORE, LEST A WORSE THING COME UNTO THEE.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this , He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Sura 2:272. It is not required of thee (O Messenger), to set them on the right path, but God sets on The Straight Way whom He pleaseth (Matt. 11:27-28). Whatever of good ye give benefits your own souls (Ezek. 18), and ye shall only do so seeking the “Face” of God. Whatever good ye give, shall be rendered back to you (Karma – Sowing and Reaping – Gal. 6:7), and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Sura 16:30. To the righteous (when) it is said, “What is it that your Lord has revealed?” They say, “All that is good.” To those who do good, there is good in this world, and the Home of the Hereafter is even better and excellent indeed is the Home of the righteous,-

Sura 16:96. What is with you must vanish: what is with “I AM” will endure. And We will certainly bestow, on those who patiently persevere, their reward according to the best of their actions.

Sura 17:13-14
17:13. Every man’s fate We have fastened on his own neck: on The Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
17:14. (It will be said to him:) “Read thine (own) record: sufficient is thy soul this day to make out the account against thee.”

Sura 98:7-8
98:7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
98:8. Their reward is with “I AM”: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which Rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; “I AM” well-pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

These are but a few of the countless examples of karma found throughout Scripture.

[Wootah]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #7]

Sowing and reaping is not about karma.

It's about investing and getting a reward.

Parable of the talents is another example.

God expects his tenant workers to work with what they have been given, invest and reap a harvest.

edit: Karma is evil. Self-righteousness of thinking you are good and not helping others who are suffering.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #7]

Sowing and reaping is not about karma.

Obviously, that isn't true. Sowing and reaping (a western expression) and karma (and eastern expression) are simply interchangeable terms referring to God's Perfect Divine Justice (His Perfect System of reward and punishment for each soul).

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he also reap.

It couldn't be made any clearer. If one thinks, says or does evil to another, then they will have the same visited upon them in punishment. If, on the other hand, they do think, say and do good to others, then they will reap the reward for doing so. Hence the COMMANDment to love one another (Mark 12:29-31).

It's about investing and getting a reward.

Which is what karma is (see: Deuteronomy 28).

Deuteronomy 28:1-2 (see verses 3-14 for the list of all of the blessings God has promised to those who keep His Commandments)
28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the "I AM" thy God, to observe [and] to do all His Commandments which I command thee this day, that the "I AM" thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
28:2 And ALL THESE BLESSINGS shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the "I AM" thy God.

Deuteronomy 28:15-(see verses 16-68 for the list of all of the curses/punishments to be reaped for continued disobedience)
28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the "I AM" thy God, to observe to do all His Commandments and His Statutes which I command thee this day; that ALL THESE CURSES [of the Law] shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Parable of the talents is another example.

Yes. Another example of karma (just desserts, reaping what one sows), where love produces additional talents and fear didn't. A good tree produces good fruit, and an evil tree produces evil fruit, where we are the "tree", and the fruit is the product of our thoughts, words and actions.

Matthew 7:16-20
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into The Fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

God expects his tenant workers to work with what they have been given, invest and reap a harvest.

Which is why God operates the perfect reward and punishment system (Divine Justice, commonly referred to as karma, just desserts, sowing and reaping), to teach us personal responsibility for our actions and that He is just and fair in all things.

NO ONE gets away with doing evil to others, regardless of what anyone may believe to the contrary.

And ANYONE who consistently strives to keep God's Law/Commandments, and applies it to their lives for everyone's benefit (which is the ONLY Way to truly love one's neighbour), will be blessed/rewarded, exactly as God has promised.

Romans 13:8-10
13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled The Law.
13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie), Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as [or more than] thyself.
13:10 Love worketh NO ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of The Law.

edit: Karma is evil. Self-righteousness of thinking you are good and not helping others who are suffering.
[/quote]
No, that is NOT karma.

Karma is God's Perfect Divine Justice being visited upon each and every one of us, who WILL be held accountable for ALL of our thoughts, words and deeds/actions on Judgement Day, for this human lifetime and all of our previous ones as well.

Anyone who isn't truly helping others in need -- by keeping God's Law/Commandments and willingly sacrifice their time, effort and ease to do whatever is needed when it is needed -- will find out on Judgement Day that they will be punished severely for their selfish/evil actions and inactions. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of themselves or of others; it ONLY matters what God thinks of us and our actions.

So calling God's Perfect Divine Justice "evil" is extremely foolish, as we've been warned.

Isaiah 5:20-21
5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for Light, and Light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
5:21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

[Wootah]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #9]

Karma is God's Perfect Divine Justice being visited upon each and every one of us, who WILL be held accountable for ALL of our thoughts, words and deeds/actions on Judgement Day, for this human lifetime and all of our previous ones as well.

And so when you see someone drowning according to their karma, do you:

not help and let God's divine karmic justice will be done help

or help and by helping you are saying God's justice is wrong.

--

Historically people that believed in karma and were having a good life left self justified and did not help others.

-

God allows his righteousness to shine on the godly and ungodly for now.

Luke 13:13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

A rejection of karma from Jesus.

Just throw out the karma mate ... and you will get good karma.