What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[oldbadger]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #393]

oldbadger Ah..... So you are very similar in beliefs a Jehovah's Witness?

AF: Not really. JW is just another organized religion, that has some beliefs which are scriptural (e.g. the pledge of allegiance is idol worship, and X-mas and Ishtar/Easter are pagan holidays) mixed together with some that are not, like going from house-to-house (Luke 10:7) and attending their version of church (Matt. 6:5-8). The same story as with ALL organized religion.

-------

oldbadger I did wonder.
Most JWs around here have similar beliefs to you but they are much more restrained about how they condemn homosexuality. Of course they are not racists so I ask you about that as well?

AF: IF it is correctly understood that we are all spiritual-Beings (Souls) -- who are not indigenous to this planet, much less to some specific region or country -- and that we are only temporarily incarnated inside of the human animal body (vessel) we see in the mirror, then what difference would the skin colour, human ethnicity or nationality of that temporary vessel/vehicle make?

Are You The Car or The Driver

And again....your opinion coincides with the JWs. They are not racist either.
But they aren't so extreme in the way that they condemn gays, etc.

[FrankieRelax]

And here is what our infallible Creator has to say on the subject of homosexuality
(shared with those capable of rational thought):

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [homosexuality] [is] ABOMINATION.

the Bible lists over 90 abominations, including things like having a Christmas tree, wearing poly cotton blend shirts and having a tattoo. No one seems to be into condemning those other abominations

and you should also realize that an abomination is not the equivalent of sin. Committing an abomination just made one ritually unclean a state of temporary impurity that prevents individuals from engaging in certain religious practices or entering sacred spaces like temples or tabernacles. to be ritually clean again you had to basically pay a fine at the temple and wash your feet there.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: They shall SURELY be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Leviticus contains over 600 laws on everything form dealing with slaves to shaving to how to dress. Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus? I really doubt it. Christians aren't supposed to. Christians are under the new covenant.

Romans 1:18-25
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the Truth as unrighteousness;

Does that include those who lie about homosexuals?

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest to them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [Him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations (Gen. 6:5), and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:

Breaking down what Paul was saying and looking at the translations we need to start with the phrase “vile afflictions.” The translation of this phrase is relatively straight forward but defining just what is a “vile affliction” is where the problems arise.
In the original Greek, the phrase for “vile affliction” áthlia thlípsi does not mean "passions" or "lust" as people experienced in normal, day-to-day living -- the type of emotion that one encounters in a marriage or sexually active relationship. It refers to the "frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music." It seems to describe the results of ritual sexual orgies as performed in many Pagan settings at the time. Paul seems to be referring here to Pagan "fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome" at the time.

In a broader sense the meaning of “vile afflictions” referees to ecstatic trance states described by anthropologists (Ref: Mircea Eliade). These ecstatic trances were part of pretty much every religion, such states were generally achieved by religious leaders but lay people could engage in them as well, the process was to connect to the spirit world for healing and blessing. The Modern Christian version would be “speaking in tongues” and the meditative state achieved in ritualistic prayer. Originally the condemnation was against any religion but the one Paul was founding, but like so many other non-Christian traditions, ecstasy found their way into Christianity.

for even their women did change the natural use into that which is AGAINST nature

On to the word “natural” In the original Greek it is the word "phooskos", meaning "inborn", "produced by nature" , "agreeable to nature". It is referring directly to what is “natural” for the individual him/her self. Please remember that the society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexuality be natural. What would have been considered unnatural for Paul’s audience would have been to force oneself to go against one’s own nature, to pretend to be something one is not. This going against one’s nature in pursuit of a relationship is referred to as being unnatural by many writers of the era.

On to the word “unnatural” or “against nature.”

Paul specifically used the Greek word paraphysi here, which does not mean "to go against the law(s) of nature", that would be ενάντια στο νόμο or cenántia sto nómo . Rather it means to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic or against the nature of that person or more simply an individual denying his/her true nature. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 1 1:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. To claim that paraphysi means unnatural would indicate that God was acting in an unnatural way. Which is impossible.
ενάντια στο νόμο = against the law

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the ABOMINABLE, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with Fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

the maybe you should consider being more honest regarding what you claim about homosexuals

[A Freeman]

[Replying to FrankieRelax in post #402]

You're trying to argue that up is allegedly down and that evil is allegedly good and that unnatural supposedly isn't against nature, etc., which will NEVER work.

An abomination IS without question a sin (crime). Sin is breaking The Law that God gave us, which is the ONLY Law there is on this planet.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.

The very fact that the ABOMINATION of homosexuality is a CAPITAL CRIME proves you don't know what you're talking about.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an ABOMINATION: they shall SURELY be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Anyone with even a modicum of common sense should immediately recognize that the male and female body parts were designed to fit together as they should and the result can NATURALLY produce LIFE (offspring). The same is very obviously NOT true for sex with the same gender, the latter of which can and does cause disease and death.

The goal of all human life here on Earth is to learn SELF-CONTROL and SELF-DISCIPLINE, neither of which can be achieved by giving in to one's ANIMALISTIC urges, and the sick, twisted minds that drive such urges.

While the cutting down of oxygen-producing trees every year for a pagan ritual is also thoughtless and destructive (which is why it too is condemned as unlawful), if you wish to talk about X-mas trees and the pagan/heathen Yuletide/Saturnalia/X-mas -- which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the birth of Jesus -- then start another thread.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to FrankieRelax in post #402]

You're trying to argue that up is allegedly down and that evil is allegedly good and that unnatural supposedly isn't against nature, etc., which will NEVER work.

An abomination IS without question a sin (crime). Sin is breaking The Law that God gave us, which is the ONLY Law there is on this planet.
.................

But you don't keep the Mosaic laws!
And you don't seem to understand what 'sin' meant back then.

You beliefs are yours to hold, as long as you can never interfere with anybody else's life at all.

[A Freeman]

[Replying to FrankieRelax in post #402]

You're trying to argue that up is allegedly down and that evil is allegedly good and that unnatural supposedly isn't against nature, etc., which will NEVER work.

An abomination IS without question a sin (crime). Sin is breaking The Law that God gave us, which is the ONLY Law there is on this planet.
.................

But you don't keep the Mosaic laws!
And you don't seem to understand what 'sin' meant back then.

You beliefs are yours to hold, as long as you can never interfere with anybody else's life at all.

Total nonsense.

Are we really supposed to believe that our CHANGELESS God allegedly changed His Mind, and/or changed His Law, i.e. allegedly changed how He defines what is right/good/just/fair and what is wrong/evil/sin/crime? God's Law will NEVER change nor pass away.

Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the "I AM", I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Matthew 5:17-19
5:17 Think NOT that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill [to fully preach The Law (The Torah) and fulfill the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah].
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in NO WAY pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the LEAST in The Kingdom of heaven (the lowest of the low in God's Eyes): but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in The Kingdom of heaven.

Sura 61:6-7
61:6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Apostle of "I AM" (sent) to you, CONFIRMING The Law (which came) before me (the Torah), and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be the Comforter (John 16:7-15)." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
61:7. Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against "I AM", even as he is being invited to do His Will? And "I AM" guides not those who do wrong (Satan does).

Are we really supposed to believe that our ALL-KNOWING God -- Who IS Love -- allegedly gave us a Law that we cannot keep?

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth ALL things.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:2-3
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and KEEP His Commandments.
5:3 For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP His Commandments: and His Commandments are NOT grievous.

Have you considered the fact that it is YOU who doesn't understand nor know what sin actually is, even when its definition is placed right before your eyes?

1 John 3:4-11
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the Beginning (Alpha), that we should love one another.

Homosexuality IS a capital crime (sin) according to God. That should be enough for everyone who values life, and genuinely wants to learn the difference between love (keeping the Commandments) and satanic, animalistic lusts.

[oldbadger]

Total nonsense.

Are we really supposed to believe that our CHANGELESS God allegedly changed His Mind, and/or changed His Law, i.e. allegedly changed how He defines what is right/good/just/fair and what is wrong/evil/sin/crime? God's Law will NEVER change nor pass away.

Not my god.......yours! And so I would expect you to keep ALL of his laws.

Are we really supposed to believe that our ALL-KNOWING God -- Who IS Love -- allegedly gave us a Law that we cannot keep?

I certainly do believe that you ignore most of the Mosaic laws. Yet you cherry picking those that fit for you.
That's very weak.

Have you considered the fact that it is YOU who doesn't understand nor know what sin actually is, even when its definition is placed right before your eyes?

Anybody who researches the language of the Israelites can tell you what sin really means, but I don't think you've done that.

Homosexuality IS a capital crime (sin) according to God. That should be enough for everyone who values life, and genuinely wants to learn the difference between love (keeping the Commandments) and satanic, animalistic lusts.

Ah! Now you're writing like a true follower of Islam, and only some of the Islamic countries treat homosexuality as a capital crime. Is it that you are a Sunni or a Shi'ite Muslim? That would make some sense.

[A Freeman]

Total nonsense.

Are we really supposed to believe that our CHANGELESS God allegedly changed His Mind, and/or changed His Law, i.e. allegedly changed how He defines what is right/good/just/fair and what is wrong/evil/sin/crime? God's Law will NEVER change nor pass away.

Not my god.......yours! And so I would expect you to keep ALL of his laws.

He expects us to keep ALL of His Law too, which He gave to us for our own benefit, to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free.

Are we really supposed to believe that our ALL-KNOWING God -- Who IS Love -- allegedly gave us a Law that we cannot keep?

I certainly do believe that you ignore most of the Mosaic laws. Yet you cherry picking those that fit for you.
That's very weak.

Not true. And yes, it was very weak on your part to suggest that. Posts to this thread -- which wasn't personally started -- are supposed to remain on topic, aren't they? If you would like to discuss another matter, other than homosexuality and what is very obviously wrong with being a homosexual, then please feel free to start another thread.

Have you considered the fact that it is YOU who doesn't understand nor know what sin actually is, even when its definition is placed right before your eyes?

Anybody who researches the language of the Israelites can tell you what sin really means, but I don't think you've done that.

Regardless of whether we look at Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic, SIN = CRIME, i.e. breaking The Law. That's exactly how it is defined throughout the Old Covenant/Testament, New Covenant/Testament and which is confirmed in the Koran/Quran, which are NOT religious books. At least not in the sense that word ("religion") is used today.

The Torah, which means "The Law" in English, is exactly that: the ONLY Law there is on this planet. God's Law defines what is lawful/right/good/just/fair and what is unlawful/wrong/evil/unjust and unfair (i.e. criminal). And The Law has expressly prohibited mankind from legislating to prevent extremely evil people from trying to "legalize" that which is unlawful while, at the same time, making that which is lawful allegedly "illegal" (see: Deut. 4:2; 12:8 and 12:32).

Homosexuality IS a capital crime (sin) according to God. That should be enough for everyone who values life, and genuinely wants to learn the difference between love (keeping the Commandments) and satanic, animalistic lusts.

Ah! Now you're writing like a true follower of Islam, and only some of the Islamic countries treat homosexuality as a capital crime. Is it that you are a Sunni or a Shi'ite Muslim? That would make some sense.

No, I'm not a member of any of the sects of "Islam", nor any other organized religion (all of which is condemned throughout the Old Covenant/Testament, New Covenant/Testament and the Koran/Quran, nor reside in an Islamic country. If they recognize that homosexuality is a capital crime, then good for them for following God's Law, found ONLY in The Torah (the first five books of the Bible). As someone who sees the pure logic, love and wisdom in God's Perfect Law of Liberty, it only stands to reason to share it with others, as it applies to this particular thread topic, since most have been programmed to see everything upside down and backwards.

[FrankieRelax]

Homosexuality IS a capital crime (sin) according to God. That should be enough for everyone who values life, and genuinely wants to learn the difference between love (keeping the Commandments) and satanic, animalistic lusts.

being a non-Christian is also a capital crime. Should we be building an updated versions of Auschwitz?

[A Freeman]

Homosexuality IS a capital crime (sin) according to God. That should be enough for everyone who values life, and genuinely wants to learn the difference between love (keeping the Commandments) and satanic, animalistic lusts.

being a non-Christian is also a capital crime. Should we be building an updated versions of Auschwitz?

Never seen anywhere in the Bible where it says that being a non-Christian is a capital crime. In fact, ALL organized religion -- including "Christianity" -- along with their priests, pastors, rabbis and imams, etc., are repeatedly condemned throughout Scripture.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to point out where you read that being a non-Christian is a capital crime please?

And with regard to Auschwitz, there's no need for prisons or prison-camps in The Law that God gave us.

According to stupid human illogic, "the punishment should fit the crime.” The punishment should PREVENT the crime, and lessening the punishment actually ENCOURAGES crime. That's why homosexuality is a capital crime; to PREVENT it.

By lessening the punishment, we are actually encouraging people to become criminals, and are helping to turn an otherwise honest person into a criminal. Then, once in prison, they are amongst criminals, and actually LEARN to become HARDENED criminals, particularly if they are young, and impressionable. The same also applies to the death-penalty. Deterrence is the ONLY answer, using God’s standard, NOT silly human standards. With the DEATH-PENALTY, the soul, that has lost control and has murdered, committed adultery, or become a homosexual, etc., is sent back to the Astral Plain, and God’s punishment, followed by a fresh-start. A prison-sentence is no REAL deterrent, and a waste of time, and a terrible drain on society, with prisons full and overflowing, costing billions to operate, with the law-abiding people having to pay heavy taxes to finance the prisons.

From EVERY angle the prison-system is wrong.

So we don't need prisons or prison camps; we only need to keep and enforce The Law that God gave us. IF people were doing that, there would have been no Auschwitz, Birkenau or Monowitz, etc., nor any world-wars, because being an attorney, politician (most of which are attorneys) and/or a war-monger are also capital crimes (Gen. 9:6; Deut. 4:2; 12:8; 12:32; 17:11-13; Matt. 5:9).

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to A Freeman in post #409]

According to stupid human illogic, "the punishment should fit the crime.” The punishment should PREVENT the crime, and lessening the punishment actually ENCOURAGES crime. That's why homosexuality is a capital crime; to PREVENT it.

Then shouldn't something PREVENT innocent children from contracting HIV from their mothers during pregnancy so they won't be wrongfully punished with AIDS?

.....unless, rather than being some "meet recompence" for sin, AIDS is a malady we should try to cure in the course of loving our neighbor as ourselves?