Do We Want Our Government to Proclaim This a Christian Nation?

[Realworldjack]

It is a fact which cannot be denied that Donald Trump attempted to overthrow the 2020 election. We can know this by the fact that Trump stood on the podium on Jan. 6th and told the gathered crowd that "Pence did not have the courage to do what needed to be done". What was it that Trump wanted Pence to do which he did not have the courage to do? We all know, because it is a demonstratable fact that it was for Pence to forgo the election results. Since we know this to be the case, then we can know that this is exactly what had been planned out.

We also know for a fact that in 2016 that Trump stated that "the only way he could lose, was if the election was rigged", and he also made the same statement in 2020. No one, and I mean NO ONE can defend such a statement. No one who is a leader would ever make such a statement. I mean, even if you knew beyond doubt that some sort of fraud was going on, a leader would never want to cause the public to lose faith in the process. Rather, a true leader would have transferred power peacefully, and then went through the process of the courts to demonstrate the case, and then in the end this leader could say, "yes there was fraud involved but as you can see, our system worked, and the fraud was exposed". However, what we have is one announcing both times that the only way he could lose is by fraud, and after four years we still have no evidence of the fraud. The point is, only one who is wanting to be rid of democracy, would ever attempt to convince his country that the system is not working.

Another thing we can all know for a fact is that it was Christians who were behind the gathering of the crowd on Jan. 6th. We also know there are Christians now who embrace the label of "Christian nationalists". Many folks believe that "Christian nationalism" is a hard term to define, because folks seem to have different definitions of what it means to be a "Christian nationalist". However, the term is not hard to define at all. A "Christian nationalist" is one who wants the government of the United States to declare this nation to be a Christian nation. I cannot imagine anyone at all claiming to be a "Christian nationalist" who does not have this aim.

It is also a fact that Trump named a Christian nationalist to be his vice president. Moreover, Trump has named a number of "Christian nationalists" to his cabinet. As we continue, the speaker of the house is a self-proclaimed Christian nationalist. This means, the next 2 men in line to take over as president if something were to happen to Trump would be self-proclaimed Christian nationalists.

With all the above being fact, the question for debate is, how in the world can we imagine that all these Christian nationalists who are now in power, who want this to be a Christian nation, would want to continue in a democracy, when democracy is preventing what it is they aim to accomplish?

[Athetotheist]

Some time back I posted in another thread:

I spent my youth during the latter years of the Cold War dreading the end of the world and what came of it? The Hal Lindseys were wrong. The founding of modern Israel in 1948 was supposed to usher in the last generation before Jesus returned. 1988, One Biblical generation later, came and went and no return of Jesus. The Soviet Union, which just had to be the great Gog of prophecy, fell apart. So then what? Maybe Christians had to convert the Jews for Jesus to come back, so they've been trying that----still no Jesus. Maybe electing Trump would set the stage for Jesus to come back. Trump was voted out----and still no Jesus.

And on another occasion:

Christianity isn't just a set of morals; it's an apocalyptic religion with prophecies revolving around the return of Jesus. Jesus' return has been expected at numerous times by numerous groups of Christians and has never happened. Every time something is prophesied and the prophecy fails, it can push those who trusted the prophecy further into culture shock and make their reactions to life more and more irrational.

That, I suspect, is what we're seeing in Christian nationalism----culture shock in action.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #2]

I spent my youth during the latter years of the Cold War dreading the end of the world and what came of it?

Not sure your age, but I grew up in much the same way dreading the end of the world.

The Hal Lindseys were wrong.

Lindsey's book came out in my teen years I think, but I would really not know since I never read them.

The founding of modern Israel in 1948 was supposed to usher in the last generation before Jesus returned. 1988, One Biblical generation later, came and went and no return of Jesus. The Soviet Union, which just had to be the great Gog of prophecy, fell apart. So then what?

Yes! There have been a lot of "quacks" out there who read the newspaper along with the Bible and would insist what was in the paper was prophesied in the Bible. There are pastors who have made a whole career simply preaching the end times, Sunday after Sunday, with millions of followers attending their Church and buying their books.

Maybe Christians had to convert the Jews for Jesus to come back, so they've been trying that----still no Jesus. Maybe electing Trump would set the stage for Jesus to come back. Trump was voted out----and still no Jesus.

More on this in a moment.

Christianity isn't just a set of morals

Christianity really has nothing whatsoever to do with morals. Rather, Christianity has to do with teaching us that we cannot live up to any sort of moral standard, and we as Christians are to let go of the chase after morality. In fact, we as Christians have been set free from the law, in order to serve our neighbor, not out of any sort of obligation to some sort of law which we could never live up to, but rather out of gratitude for what has been done on our behalf, not judging others, since we are no better than others morally.

it's an apocalyptic religion with prophecies revolving around the return of Jesus. Jesus' return has been expected at numerous times by numerous groups of Christians and has never happened. Every time something is prophesied, and the prophecy fails, it can push those who trusted the prophecy further into culture shock and make their reactions to life more and more irrational.

I will agree that there have been those Christians who have focused almost solely upon the end times, and that this has taken up a lot of space and time throughout the years, but I really do not believe that it has been the main thing, nor by any means, the main problem.

That, I suspect, is what we're seeing in Christian nationalism----culture shock in action.

I can tell you with confidence that Christian nationalism has very little to nothing at all to do with the sort of end times scenarios you bring up above. Most of the Christian nationalists are "post-mil" in their eschatology, which means they are convinced that the whole world must be Christianized before Christ can return. So then, whatever is happening in the world today, has nothing whatsoever to do with it, because if the whole world has not been Christianized then Jesus cannot return. I mean, think about this? This would mean that Jesus could not possibly return any time soon, because it would take hundreds of years for this to even occur if this eschatology were true, and the thing is, most of these Christian nationalists acknowledge this to be the case.

This whole thing started in the 1970's with a man named R. J. Rushdoony. Rushdoony came up with what has been called, "Christian Reconstruction" (CR from now on). CR taught that society would collapse, and it would be Christians who would rebuild society, and society would be rebuilt upon the Mosaic law. In the 1980's many Christian leaders took off with the ideas of Rushdoony, but would have never wanted it to be known the ideas were tied in any way to Rushdoony, for reasons we do not have time to discuss. These leaders such as Jerry Falwell who started the "Moral Majority", James Dobson of "Focus on the Family" and many others took up the ideas of Rushdoony, and began to call Christians to battle in what was called the "culture wars".

These Christians have been involved in these "culture wars" for over 5 decades now, and they are getting their behinds handed to them on a "silver platter" and they have had enough. In other words, after 5 decades they are not only not any closer to taking over the U.S. for Christ, but they are also in fact losing ground, and now the end justifies any means, which means they are willing to do whatever it takes to take over the United States in the name of Christ.

I have been in debate with one of the most prominent self-proclaimed Christian nationalists in the nation, and he explained to me, "it was a Christian society whose standard was the Bible, which gave us the Constitution". He is absolutely correct! However, I went on to explain to him, that "this Christian society whose standard was the Bible which gave us the Constitution, ensured that the federal government was forbidden from establishing any religion at all as the national religion, nor could the federal government forbid the free exercise of the individual to adhere to any religion they wished". Moreover, this Christian society whose standard was the Bible, ensured there could be no religious test given to those seeking to run for public office in the federal government.

As you should be able to clearly see at this point, it is not only the Constitution, but it is also democracy that is getting in the way of these Christian nationalists, and they are not about to allow democracy, nor the Constitution to get in their way. These folks demonstrated that they are not about to let democracy get in the way on Jan. 6th, and they are demonstrating the Constitution will not get in the way since Trump has been elected by defying the courts. These folks are serious, and they mean business, and I am afraid they just may have the power to do what they are aiming to do.

Now, let us go back to the fact that, it was a Christian society whose standard was the Bible, which gave us the Constitution, which ensured the freedom, liberty, and justice, for all, no matter religion. The point is it was Christians who gave us all these freedoms, and now it is Christians who want to take these freedoms away. You cannot make this stuff up! I am a Christian, and I am all for Christians running for public office, as long as they understand that while their hand may be on the Bible, the oath they are taking is to the Constitution, and not to the Bible.

The main point I am making here is, I really do not believe most folks understand how close we are to losing our democratic republic here in the United States. Most Christians believe they are backing Christian values by participating in what has been called the culture wars by backing the party they have been told hold these values, while there are non-Christians who are backing these policies on what they believe to be conservative values.

I can tell you that I have never voted for a democrat until I voted for Harris this year. However, I really did not vote for Harris, I voted against what I understand to be a movement which intends to do away with democracy, along with the Constitution. To be clear, when I say, "I really did not vote for Harris" I am not saying in any way I believe Harris to be a bad candidate, rather it is just that I am more conservative in that I look to make changes more slowly. This could be a whole other discussion, but my main focus is upon those Christian nationalists whose aim it is to cause the federal government to proclaim this to be a Christian nation.

[placebofactor]

Some time back I posted in another thread:

You wrote, "I spent my youth during the latter years of the Cold War dreading the end of the world and what came of it? The Hal Lindseys were wrong. The founding of modern Israel in 1948 was supposed to usher in the last generation before Jesus returned. 1988, One Biblical generation later, came and went and no return of Jesus. The Soviet Union, which just had to be the great Gog of prophecy, fell apart. So then what? Maybe Christians had to convert the Jews for Jesus to come back, so they've been trying that----still no Jesus. Maybe electing Trump would set the stage for Jesus to come back. Trump was voted out----and still no Jesus."

If a child were born on May 14, 1948, the day Israel became a nation, they would be 77 years old today, April 5, 2025. One Biblical generation is 80. A biblical generation begins at birth and ends at death. So, three years remain for Mr. Lindsey's prophecy to be fulfilled. The Bible does not speak of the Soviet Union; it speaks of the lands north of Israel, possibly Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Russia, or a combination of the four. It makes no difference which ones; they're all Muslims. Islam is the great enemy of Israel and the Christians. And if you're an American, they're your enemy also. The events concerning Gog and Magog will be after the 1000-year reign of Christ. So, you will have to wait another 1003 years before you begin to criticize something you have little knowledge of.

Christianity isn't just a set of morals; it's an apocalyptic religion with prophecies revolving around the return of Jesus. Jesus' return has been expected at numerous times by numerous groups of Christians and has never happened. Every time something is prophesied and the prophecy fails, it can push those who trusted the prophecy further into culture shock and make their reactions to life more and more irrational.

Wow, I can see you have never personally studied end-time prophesy. If you have any real questions, don't be afraid to ask; I'll help you to get back on track.

That, I suspect, is what we're seeing in Christian nationalism----culture shock in action.

What do you see with Islam?

"Death and destruction!!!!!!!!!!

What do you see with Atheist?

Ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!

What do I see with Christ? "HOPE!"

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #4]

What do you see with Islam?

"Death and destruction!!!!!!!!!!

What do you see with Atheist?

Ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!

What do I see in your reply?

Broad-brushing!!!!!!!!!!

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #4]

One Biblical generation is 80.

In the Bible, a generation is typically about thirty years, as one generation will be parents to the next.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/chris ... odern.html

Wow, I can see you have never personally studied end-time prophesy. If you have any real questions, don't be afraid to ask; I'll help you to get back on track.

Well, let's start with this one:

Why didn't the Son of Man come before his disciples went over the cities of Israel (Matthew 10:23)?

[historia]

Many folks believe that "Christian nationalism" is a hard term to define, because folks seem to have different definitions of what it means to be a "Christian nationalist".

Agreed.

However, the term is not hard to define at all. A "Christian nationalist" is one who wants the government of the United States to declare this nation to be a Christian nation.

Okay, but that's just punting a bit on the definition, as it raises the next question: What does it mean for the United States to be a "Christian nation"?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to historia in post #7]

Okay, but that's just punting a bit on the definition, as it raises the next question: What does it mean for the United States to be a "Christian nation"?

They want it to be officially Christian in government policy.

[historia]

[Replying to historia in post #7]

Okay, but that's just punting a bit on the definition, as it raises the next question: What does it mean for the United States to be a "Christian nation"?

They want it to be officially Christian in government policy.

Which means what, exactly?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to historia in post #9]

They want it to be officially Christian in government policy.

Which means what, exactly?

They want government decisions based on Christian doctrine rather than on democratic principles.