Troubling verses for the Trinity

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Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

John 14:28 – "The Father is greater than I."
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 – "For 'He has put everything under his feet.' Now when it says that 'everything has been put under him,' it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."
John 10:29 – "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all."
Philippians 2:6-8 – "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage... he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!"
John 17:1-5 – "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you... I brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do."
Matthew 26:39 – "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Luke 22:42 – "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

It's a topic that Trinitarians often avoid discussing because the concept of God being both Master and Servant presents an apparent contradiction. It's difficult to reconcile these two roles without creating a logical inconsistency.

One of many with the Trinity.

Asking them to explain, prove, and provide evidence for Hypostasis is, at best, quite entertaining.
1) John 14:28 - The president is greater than me. But the president and I are both humans. Our position does not make us of a different substance.
2) 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 - Did Jesus put himself under his own feet? Let's not make this silly.
3) John 5:19 - Obedience does not imply anything more. Hopeful you were obedient to your parents.
4) John 10:29 - The father is greater in status not in God power.
5) Philippians 2:6-8 - I have a thread on this. The problem for you is that the verse makes no sense unless Jesus is God and did not use that equality to his own advantage. Otherwise the verse itself is a lie because Jesus is not equal with God.
6) John 17:1-5 - can any non-God being glorify God? Truly?
7) Matthew 26:39 - obedience or subservience does not imply a different substance.
8) Luke 22:42 - obedience or subservience does not imply a different substance.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 longer answer from Grok because I had questions. Basically why would the Bible need to say something so obvious at all.
explain 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 why bother to say it is clear that does not include God himself since that seems obvious
In 1 Corinthians 15:27-28, Paul writes:
"For he ‘has put everything under his feet.’ Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (NIV)
Paul is addressing the ultimate authority and submission in the cosmic order, specifically Christ’s reign and relationship to God the Father. The phrase "it is clear that this does not include God himself" might seem unnecessary at first glance because, to many readers, it’s obvious that God wouldn’t be subject to anyone, including Christ. So why does Paul bother to clarify this?
One reason is to avoid any potential misunderstanding. Paul is quoting Psalm 8:6 ("You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet"), which originally described humanity’s dominion over creation but is now applied to Christ’s exalted status. When he says "everything" is put under Christ, he’s emphasizing the totality of Christ’s authority over all creation—every power, force, and being. However, in a Greco-Roman or Jewish context, where debates about hierarchies of gods, powers, or authorities were common, someone might misinterpret "everything" too literally and wonder if even God the Father is included. By explicitly stating that God himself is excluded, Paul ensures his readers don’t stumble into a theological error, like suggesting that the Father is somehow subordinate to the Son.
Another angle is theological precision. Paul is building a careful argument about the relationship between the Father and the Son, especially in the context of Christ’s temporary reign before handing all things back to God (v. 28). This passage reflects the early Christian understanding of the Trinity and Christ’s role as the mediator. The clarification reinforces that Christ’s authority, while absolute over creation, is still derived from and subject to the Father’s ultimate sovereignty. It’s a way of guarding against any confusion about the unity and distinction within the Godhead.
So, while it might seem obvious to us now, Paul’s audience— steeped in diverse philosophical and religious ideas—might have needed the reassurance. He’s dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s to keep the focus on God’s supreme authority and the Son’s willing submission, paving the way for the climactic point: "so that God may be all in all."
Debate topic: Debate these 'troubling verses' for the Trinity.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #11

Post by face2face »

placebofactor wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 12:15 pm
face2face wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 10:17 am
Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 7:48 am Debate topic: Debate these 'troubling verses' for the Trinity.
Jesus is his own father because Jesus conceived himself.
We should pray that Base12 is granted the clarity and understanding to critically examine and break free from this self-deception.

F2F
Those who reject the teaching of the Holy Spirit have problems with the doctrine of the Trinity.
This provided me a cheap laugh so than you!

If only the HS provided you the manmade formula within the pages of the inspired writ!

Only then could you make such a claim.

F2F

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #12

Post by Wootah »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:59 pm
Base12 wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 7:48 am Jesus turned himself into Sperm, placed himself into the womb of Mary, and Mary gave birth to him. A caveman could figure this out.
A few in this thread have already asked ... and I have to ask as well , are you being serious or sarcastic? Sarcasm doesn't translate well into text. If you are being serious, once Jesus was a simple sperm cell how could he place himself anywhere? (serious - not rhetorical - question)
I think we can all agree that Base12 has surprised us all.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #13

Post by Wootah »

APAK wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 8:30 am Are you serious, your 8 explanations or analogies are nonsense. They are all given through the lens, not of scripture, of the Trinity, that in itself is nonsense.

You do know WHAT you believe in is not in a personal God, it is an impersonal WHAT of a God. If yo really know what your Trinity God means then you must have no misunderstandings in what I'm saying here.

Unless you need me to break it all down for you. Let me know.

God and his human son are both human, please...you must not be serious. If you know your god then yo must also know that in this model of belief, Jesus can never be a human person. Of course you already knew that already.
Sure please break it down.

If you have a job and go to work and have a boss. The boss is greater than you but they are also a human. It's a position, nothing to do with abilities or nature.
God and his human son are both human, please...you must not be serious. If you know your god then yo must also know that in this model of belief, Jesus can never be a human person. Of course you already knew that already.
Jesus cannot be a human? Yes please tell more.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #14

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #5]

It was a list of verses from F2F.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #15

Post by APAK »

Wootah wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 7:42 pm
APAK wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 8:30 am Are you serious, your 8 explanations or analogies are nonsense. They are all given through the lens, not of scripture, of the Trinity, that in itself is nonsense.

You do know WHAT you believe in is not in a personal God, it is an impersonal WHAT of a God. If yo really know what your Trinity God means then you must have no misunderstandings in what I'm saying here.

Unless you need me to break it all down for you. Let me know.

God and his human son are both human, please...you must not be serious. If you know your god then yo must also know that in this model of belief, Jesus can never be a human person. Of course you already knew that already.

Jesus cannot be a human? Yes please tell more.
And you are serious then, that as a Trinitarian you do not know that your doctrine does not allow Jesus to be a human person. It is part of your orthodox history and foundation, although I must admit it is hidden from most folks.

The Trinity doctrine really says that Jesus cannot be a human person, only a divine person as this would then upset the apple cart. In this ridiculous and incredible pagan idea of incarnation, its says that Jesus maintained his divine personhood and acquired a human nature, therefore he's a divine being, a divine person and a human being because of his human nature, although, never a (mere) human person.

If Jesus was accepted to be both a human person and a divine person, then the Trinity model would crash and burn instantly. The doctrine would now not have all persons of the same substance or essence (the 'thing' that makes or glues its God as 'one' thing) amongst, now 4 persons, as a new Quadrinity or quaternity model. The trinity would be gone.

If you cannot understand this critical point then I suggest you find other sources that say essentially what I just said with most probably more obscure clouded language by design.

And there's no point going any further until you see this point, if you are really interested of course.

Hope this helps.
"it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #16

Post by Base12 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:59 pm A few in this thread have already asked ... and I have to ask as well , are you being serious or sarcastic?
Very serious. This is a topic I have studied for decades.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:59 pm If you are being serious, once Jesus was a simple sperm cell how could he place himself anywhere? (serious - not rhetorical - question)
Excellent question.

The process is actually detailed out in the various rituals that took place in the Tabernacles and Temples throughout Israel's history.

I will have to create a new thread on this, but basically the Tabernacles and Temples are scale models of eukaryotic cells.

The symbolism goes something like this...

Image

Image

On Yom Kippur, the biological cell switches roles to become symbolic of a female egg cell that is fertilized. It represents the flesh of Jesus...

Hebrews 10:20
"By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"


The Zygote Temple is the 'Woman' who is being nourished in this verse...

Revelation 12:14
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."


In other words, we are looking at 'Her Seed', the Zygote that began all the way in the Garden of Eden, nourished for 1260 years from Moses to Jesus.
  • Year 0 -> Moses 'Prepares Her Place' (Revelation 12:6).
  • 1260 Years Later -> Jesus is born
  • 1290 (30 Years Later) -> Jesus begins his ministry.
  • 1335 (45 Years Later) -> Destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
The High Priest enters into the Most Holy Place and fertilizes the Nucleolus (Ark of the Covenant) with DNA... i.e., Blood seven times. Seven represents Nitrogen (fertilizer) and Nitrogen Bases (Word Made Flesh).

It is a picture of genetic engineering via the Holy Ghost. This is how it was done.

Again, the process was laid out in Scripture the whole time. Very few have understood what they were looking at.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Base12 wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:16 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 5:59 pm If you are being serious, once Jesus was a simple sperm cell how could he place himself anywhere? (serious - not rhetorical - question)
.... via the Holy Ghost. This is how it was done.
So you believe that the holy ghost, being a separate person (standard definition of the trinity) put Jesus into Mary's womb?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #18

Post by Base12 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 5:34 pm So you believe that the holy ghost, being a separate person (standard definition of the trinity) put Jesus into Mary's womb?
Yes, that is part of the process of Kenosis, i.e., reincarnation from Heaven to Earth....

Matthew 1:20
"But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."


A 'disrobing' must take place. Once Jesus ascends, he goes back into his Heavenly Body, his Tabernacle...

Revelation 21:22
"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."


There you go again. Another Trinity verse. The Lord God (Father) *and* the Lamb (Son) are *in the same Temple Body*. The Holy Spirit is always there by default because God is alive. See how obvious this is?

The Soul (Genome) and Spirit (Electromagnetism) merges with Body (Tabernacle) to become One. Three in One. Body+Soul+Spirit or Father+Word+Holy Ghost. It is all the same thing.

The Father sits on the Throne and the Lamb represents his Sperm, his Seed, his Soul, his Genome emanating from his loins to fertilize the Tree of Life Ovary...

Revelation 22:1
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."


Again, Three sit on the Throne as One. Simple.

Note that we also must 'disrobe' from our Tabernacle one day...

2 Peter 1:14
"Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me."


It is all about switching Body Styles. :D

Reincarnation works in all sorts of ways. O:)
Last edited by Base12 on Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #19

Post by Base12 »

Look...

The Throne Room depicts Abraham's Bosom. The Heart is where the Tables (Genome Sequences) originate. It is symbolic of the Soul.

The Slain Lamb is symbolic of Abraham's Seed in the literal Bosom of the Father...
  • Throne = Heart
  • Twenty-Four Elders = Ribs
  • Slain Lamb = Stone with Seven Eyes (Nitrogen Base), Genomes, Seed, DNA
  • Seven Spirits = Breath/Lungs
Put it all together people...

Image

To be absent from the Body is to be present with the LORD in Abraham's Bosom/Paradise until the marriage!

Sarah is symbolic of the Bride. The Mother of us All is LITERAL...

Image

The Resurrected are Spirit and Soul only (Living Soul) until they partake of the Zygote and receive their new 'Body Covering'. Leaves are a covering. Get it?

Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."


Trinity. Body/Soul/Spirit. Three in One.

How can one become Born Again before the marriage? Think people.
Last edited by Base12 on Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Troubling verses for the Trinity

Post #20

Post by Base12 »

Now, if you really want to be blown away...

The entire scene in the Throne Room, etc. is not even the highest form of God. The whole thing is being manifested like a hologram from a place called the Logos...

Image

It is like a software code that generates all reality that we know of. That is where the Three are truly One.

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."


It is a place of 'Unapproachable Light' that only Jesus can visit because Jesus is God...

1 Timothy 6:16
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."


We can never go there. We would die if we did.

Anyhow, who can receive this?

Image

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