Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #109]

Poverty is relative. Citizens of poor countries may earn as little as $30/month or less yet poor workers in America claim the 'system' is unjust if they only make $300/week.

Poverty is not relative. Poverty is being unable to afford what you need. Thus, poverty is determined by the ratio of how much you have to how much your needs cost.

$300/week = $1,200/month. You try paying rent and utilities AND feeding, clothing and insuring even one child on $1,200 a month in the United States of Capitalism and see how long you keep your head above water.

The problem with unregenerate envious and greedy workers is that they think if they are not making as much as the CEO then the system is unfair, which is stupid.

Oh, those greedy workers.....they think people owe them money just because they work for it.....Is that the capitalist apologetic----if working people demand enough to provide for their families, accuse them of wanting a CEO's salary?

The poor are not poor because the rich are rich and sustainable wages in a healthy economy are set by market forces, not by 'greedy' CEOs who somehow think that by mistreating their workers they can compete with other companies that do not mistreat their workers.

Have you ever wondered why so much of what we consume is made in poorer parts of the world----which happens to be where the cheapest labor is?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #109]

Poverty is relative. Citizens of poor countries may earn as little as $30/month or less yet poor workers in America claim the 'system' is unjust if they only make $300/week.

Poverty is not relative. Poverty is being unable to afford what you need. Thus, poverty is determined by the ratio of how much you have to how much your needs cost.
$300/week = $1,200/month. You try paying rent and utilities AND feeding, clothing and insuring even one child on $1,200 a month in the United States of Capitalism and see how long you keep your head above water.

Marke: Whose responsibility is it to solve poverty in the world, American workers making more than the upper range of poverty by American standards? If American workers getting rich in America are unwilling to give substantial portions of their incomes to feed the poor in impoverished nations around the world should the US government hire more armed IRS agents to seize the money at gunpoint?

The problem with unregenerate envious and greedy workers is that they think if they are not making as much as the CEO then the system is unfair, which is stupid.

Oh, those greedy workers.....they think people owe them money just because they work for it.....Is that the capitalist apologetic----if working people demand enough to provide for their families, accuse them of wanting a CEO's salary?

The poor are not poor because the rich are rich and sustainable wages in a healthy economy are set by market forces, not by 'greedy' CEOs who somehow think that by mistreating their workers they can compete with other companies that do not mistreat their workers.

Have you ever wondered why so much of what we consume is made in poorer parts of the world----which happens to be where the cheapest labor is?

[oldbadger]

I do not believe Jesus taught what unbelievers erroneously claim He taught.

So you don't believe in the gospels, the accounts of what Jesus said and did. OK.

[marke]

I do not believe Jesus taught what unbelievers erroneously claim He taught.

So you don't believe in the gospels, the accounts of what Jesus said and did. OK.

Marke: Jesus did not tell me that I should tell you to give more of your hoarded wealth unto the poor.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #112]

Whose responsibility is it to solve poverty in the world, American workers making more than the upper range of poverty by American standards?

....to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required....
(Luke 12:48)

If American workers getting rich in America are unwilling to give substantial portions of their incomes to feed the poor in impoverished nations around the world should the US government hire more armed IRS agents to seize the money at gunpoint?

If American Christians conflate giving to the poor with armed robbery, what does that say about how "Christian" they are?

Besides----in America, it isn't workers getting rich.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #112]

Whose responsibility is it to solve poverty in the world, American workers making more than the upper range of poverty by American standards?

....to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required....
(Luke 12:48)

Marke: Is Jesus telling you to to tell people making more than $40,000/year to give worthy portions of their incomes to people around the world making less?

If American workers getting rich in America are unwilling to give substantial portions of their incomes to feed the poor in impoverished nations around the world should the US government hire more armed IRS agents to seize the money at gunpoint?

If American Christians conflate giving to the poor with armed robbery, what does that say about how "Christian" they are?

Besides----in America, it isn't workers getting rich.

Marke: Now you want to talk about rich democrats who have made millions of dollars mysteriously while 'serving' in Congress? Is that who you are saying are not giving enough of their hoarded wealth to the poor? Has Obama given any significant cash to the poor or was it just billions of dollars to terrorists in Iran?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #116]

Is Jesus telling you to to tell people making more than $40,000/year to give worthy portions of their incomes to people around the world making less?

It isn't about what Jesus is supposedly telling me. It's about what you believe Jesus is telling you.

In the Christian Bible, he never tells you to assume the worst about the poor, does he?

And what are you defining as "worthy portions"?

Now you want to talk about rich democrats....?

Maybe you would rather focus on them, but this isn't about Democrats and Republicans. It's about the Have's and the Have-Not's----and, by extension, the emphasis which Jesus put on taking care of the Have-Not's, even when it rubbed the moneychangers the wrong way.

[oldbadger]

Marke: Jesus did not tell me that I should tell you to give more of your hoarded wealth unto the poor.

Indeed he did not! You got that right!
He told YOU that mammon hugging over wealthy people would have no chance of gaining his movement or his heaven.
It's all written down in your gospels.

You seem to be having difficulty with this?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #116]

Is Jesus telling you to to tell people making more than $40,000/year to give worthy portions of their incomes to people around the world making less?

It isn't about what Jesus is supposedly telling me. It's about what you believe Jesus is telling you.

Marke: Of course. Leftists don't care what Jesus said because they reject God but they want to trash Christians by falsely accusing them of not doing what they claim Jesus told them to do.

In the Christian Bible, he never tells you to assume the worst about the poor, does he?

And what are you defining as "worthy portions"?

Marke: You tell me. You are the one claiming Christians disobey God by not giving portions of their income to the poor. Leftists don't give of their income to the poor but they delight in slandering Christians for supposedly not giving worthy portions of their income to the poor. Lefties cannot see the insanity and hypocrisy of their position.

Now you want to talk about rich democrats....?

Maybe you would rather focus on them, but this isn't about Democrats and Republicans. It's about the Have's and the Have-Not's----and, by extension, the emphasis which Jesus put on taking care of the Have-Not's, even when it rubbed the moneychangers the wrong way.

Marke: I mention rich leftists who are making all the noise about the rich allegedly not caring for the poor. Do they not see the hypocrisy of their argument as they apply their nonsense to conservatives but disregard the massive guilt of those on the left who would also be condemned if their arguments were true and honest?

[oldbadger]

Marke: I mention rich leftists who are making all the noise about the rich allegedly not caring for the poor. Do they not see the hypocrisy of their argument as they apply their nonsense to conservatives but disregard the massive guilt of those on the left who would also be condemned if their arguments were true and honest?

This is typical method of distraction, away from so much obvious hypocrisy by many comfortably wealthy Christians towards anywhere or anybody else.

But it does show a classical example of how many 'Christians' have wrapped politics up in to their religion.
Jesus told his followers again-and-again that to grasp riches to themselves whilst forsaking people like the disabled, young families, unemployed, etc is wicked, and that they would not be true followers of himself.
It's all there in the gospels but they won't acknowledge this.