My take on Proverbs 8

[placebofactor]

The following from Proverbs 8, is one of the most positive proofs of the Sons relation to his Father. Wisdom refers to the Son of God, He is the Wisdom of God giving further proof of our Lord's Divinity. Proverbs 8 gives us a double sense of prophecy, the same double sense we find in David and Isaiah. The apostle John more than likely alludes to this passage in the introduction of his gospel, where he speaks of the Son of God, under the character of the Logos (or the Word); which can be rendered either the Wisdom, the Reason, or the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God." This Divine power and Wisdom have been imparted from the Father, to establish his only begotten Son with infinite skill, insight, knowledge, and wisdom to those who desire to receive it.

Proverbs 8:14, “Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.”

Verse 15, “By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.”
Daniel 2:21, “God “removes kings, and (raises) kings.”

Verse 17, “I love them that love me; and those that seek me early (diligently) shall find me.” Compare with,
Hosea 5:15, the LORD is speaking to Israel, “I will go and return to my place, ---------- and seek my face: in their affliction, they will seek me early (diligently).”

Proverbs 8:19, “My fruit is better than gold,” Compare with,
Revelation 3:18, Jesus is speaking, “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich.”

Proverbs 8:22, “The LORD (the Father) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.” Possessed is to set up, to inherit, before the work of creation began. Compare with,
John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Proverbs 8:23, “I (Wisdom) was set up (anointed) from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” Jesus was enthroned over all the works of the Father. Compare with,
Hebrews 1:9, “God (the Father) has anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above they fellows.

Proverbs 8:24, “When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.”
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning"
Genesis 1:3, “And God said let there be light: and there was light.”
2 Corinthians 4:6, “For God (the Father), who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,”

Before the mountains and hill were brought forth before he had made the earth, fields, or dust of the Earth, when he prepared the heavens, and when he drew a circle upon the surface of the deep
Proverbs 8:29-30, "When He (the Father) appointed (decreed) the foundations of the earth..." This is the declaration of the Father's will, concerning the creation of heaven and earth.
Then I (Wisdom, Jesus) was by him, (the Father) as one brought up with Him." The word "brought" is not the same word used in verse 24. Here it means to be trusted, confided in, and believed in, and also implies that Jesus, ascended to, as in will and deed, to His Father's will. Jesus was fixed, permanent, and durable, truth was in Him.

What’s your take on these verses?

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God."

Verse 22, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me (Wisdom) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." The verse declares the Wisdom, or the Word of God, Jesus Christ was the source of all the Father's work of creation. Compare this with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word (the Son of God), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Creator.)"

Verse 23, He (the Son of God) was set up, meaning "He was anointed, or enthroned over all the works of creation. Psalms 2:6, "I (the Father) have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion."

[onewithhim]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God."

Verse 22, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me (Wisdom) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." The verse declares the Wisdom, or the Word of God, Jesus Christ was the source of all the Father's work of creation. Compare this with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word (the Son of God), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Creator.)"

Verse 23, He (the Son of God) was set up, meaning "He was anointed, or enthroned over all the works of creation. Psalms 2:6, "I (the Father) have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion."

You make excellent points, though you confuse them with the insistence that Jesus is God, from John 1:1. Anyway, what you have said shows that you believe that Jesus and Jehovah are two different Beings, and Jehovah calls the shots. That is clear from what you've posted here. That is in agreement with what JWs believe.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God."

Verse 22, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me (Wisdom) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." The verse declares the Wisdom, or the Word of God, Jesus Christ was the source of all the Father's work of creation. Compare this with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word (the Son of God), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Creator.)"

Verse 23, He (the Son of God) was set up, meaning "He was anointed, or enthroned over all the works of creation. Psalms 2:6, "I (the Father) have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion."

You make excellent points, though you confuse them with the insistence that Jesus is God, from John 1:1. Anyway, what you have said shows that you believe that Jesus and Jehovah are two different Beings, and Jehovah calls the shots. That is clear from what you've posted here. That is in agreement with what JWs believe.

In a discussion with a friend, they asked me, "What do the Scriptures mean when they talk about Christ being in "fullness?" and what is better the whole, or the full?"

I told him, "Let’s begin with an examination of the Greek word for fullness, which pretty much appears to be self-explanatory. As a metaphor, the word fullness in the following verses means, in full measure, abundance, and completeness, such as leaving nothing more to be desired

John 1:16, "Of His (Christ’s) fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."

Colossians 2:9, "For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," as in the fullness, the plenitude of the divine perfections; and so absolute.

Colossians 1:19, "For it pleased the Father that in him (Jesus) should all fullness dwell." Compare with,

Colossians 2:10, "You are complete in Him (Jesus,) which is the head of all principality and power."

Romans 15:29, Paul wrote, "When I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel," as in the full, abundant blessings of the gospel; so, of a state of fulness, abundance, as opposed to, "Diminishing,"

[onewithhim]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God."

Verse 22, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me (Wisdom) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." The verse declares the Wisdom, or the Word of God, Jesus Christ was the source of all the Father's work of creation. Compare this with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word (the Son of God), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Creator.)"

Verse 23, He (the Son of God) was set up, meaning "He was anointed, or enthroned over all the works of creation. Psalms 2:6, "I (the Father) have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion."

You make excellent points, though you confuse them with the insistence that Jesus is God, from John 1:1. Anyway, what you have said shows that you believe that Jesus and Jehovah are two different Beings, and Jehovah calls the shots. That is clear from what you've posted here. That is in agreement with what JWs believe.

In a discussion with a friend, they asked me, "What do the Scriptures mean when they talk about Christ being in "fullness?" and what is better the whole, or the full?"

I told him, "Let’s begin with an examination of the Greek word for fullness, which pretty much appears to be self-explanatory. As a metaphor, the word fullness in the following verses means, in full measure, abundance, and completeness, such as leaving nothing more to be desired

John 1:16, "Of His (Christ’s) fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."

You just showed what being filled with the fullness of God really means. It is not that Christ is fully God, because the verse above says that a Christian individual can be filled with the fullness of God. Does that make him equal to God?

[placebofactor]

The will of the Father is set down from the beginning of all things till the goal is reached. Jesus as the heir, follows His Son-ship and precedes His making the worlds.

1. Proverbs 8:22, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old."
2. Proverbs 8:23, "I was set up (anointed) from everlasting from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

In the above two verses, we see both the Father and Son together before the works of old, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me -- before His works of old," Jesus created all things, thus making Him Lord and God of all things, all to the glory of the Father who sent Him.

Ephesians 3:11, "According to the eternal purpose which He (the Father) purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

As the "Only begotten of the Father," Jesus is heir of the universe,

Hebrews 1:6, “Again, when He bringeth in the first begotten unto the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship Him." So, the Son of God was the instrument by which the Father put His will into effect,

Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

"The Word of God," answers to, "By whom," John 1:3, "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

[onewithhim]

The will of the Father is set down from the beginning of all things till the goal is reached. Jesus as the heir, follows His Son-ship and precedes His making the worlds.

1. Proverbs 8:22, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old."
2. Proverbs 8:23, "I was set up (anointed) from everlasting from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

In the above two verses, we see both the Father and Son together before the works of old, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me -- before His works of old," Jesus created all things, thus making Him Lord and God of all things, all to the glory of the Father who sent Him.

Ephesians 3:11, "According to the eternal purpose which He (the Father) purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

As the "Only begotten of the Father," Jesus is heir of the universe,

Hebrews 1:6, “Again, when He bringeth in the first begotten unto the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship Him." So, the Son of God was the instrument by which the Father put His will into effect,

Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

"The Word of God," answers to, "By whom," John 1:3, "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

You didn't answer my question in post #5.

[placebofactor]

The will of the Father is set down from the beginning of all things till the goal is reached. Jesus as the heir, follows His Son-ship and precedes His making the worlds.

1. Proverbs 8:22, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old."
2. Proverbs 8:23, "I was set up (anointed) from everlasting from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

In the above two verses, we see both the Father and Son together before the works of old, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me -- before His works of old," Jesus created all things, thus making Him Lord and God of all things, all to the glory of the Father who sent Him.

Ephesians 3:11, "According to the eternal purpose which He (the Father) purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

As the "Only begotten of the Father," Jesus is heir of the universe,

Hebrews 1:6, “Again, when He bringeth in the first begotten unto the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship Him." So, the Son of God was the instrument by which the Father put His will into effect,

Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

"The Word of God," answers to, "By whom," John 1:3, "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

You didn't answer my question in post #5.

No matter what I quote, you will deny it. You have made up your mind concerning Jesus being God, the Holy Spirit being the breath of the Father etc. etc. no sense wasting your time or mine. I like to discuss and debate people who are open-minded, willing to teach AND learn. I don't find that with you.

[onewithhim]

The will of the Father is set down from the beginning of all things till the goal is reached. Jesus as the heir, follows His Son-ship and precedes His making the worlds.

1. Proverbs 8:22, "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old."
2. Proverbs 8:23, "I was set up (anointed) from everlasting from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

In the above two verses, we see both the Father and Son together before the works of old, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me -- before His works of old," Jesus created all things, thus making Him Lord and God of all things, all to the glory of the Father who sent Him.

Ephesians 3:11, "According to the eternal purpose which He (the Father) purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

As the "Only begotten of the Father," Jesus is heir of the universe,

Hebrews 1:6, “Again, when He bringeth in the first begotten unto the world, he saith, and let all the angels of God worship Him." So, the Son of God was the instrument by which the Father put His will into effect,

Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

"The Word of God," answers to, "By whom," John 1:3, "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made."

You didn't answer my question in post #5.

No matter what I quote, you will deny it. You have made up your mind concerning Jesus being God, the Holy Spirit being the breath of the Father etc. etc. no sense wasting your time or mine. I like to discuss and debate people who are open-minded, willing to teach AND learn. I don't find that with you.

I am willing to learn. That's why I asked you to answer my question in post #5.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God."

Verse 22, "The LORD (the Father) possessed me (Wisdom) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." The verse declares the Wisdom, or the Word of God, Jesus Christ was the source of all the Father's work of creation. Compare this with John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word (the Son of God), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Creator.)"

Verse 23, He (the Son of God) was set up, meaning "He was anointed, or enthroned over all the works of creation. Psalms 2:6, "I (the Father) have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion."

You make excellent points, though you confuse them with the insistence that Jesus is God, from John 1:1. Anyway, what you have said shows that you believe that Jesus and Jehovah are two different Beings, and Jehovah calls the shots. That is clear from what you've posted here. That is in agreement with what JWs believe.

In a discussion with a friend, they asked me, "What do the Scriptures mean when they talk about Christ being in "fullness?" and what is better the whole, or the full?"

I told him, "Let’s begin with an examination of the Greek word for fullness, which pretty much appears to be self-explanatory. As a metaphor, the word fullness in the following verses means, in full measure, abundance, and completeness, such as leaving nothing more to be desired

John 1:16, "Of His (Christ’s) fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."

You just showed what being filled with the fullness of God really means. It is not that Christ is fully God, because the verse above says that a Christian individual can be filled with the fullness of God. Does that make him equal to God?

Christ is the fulness, as in divine perfections, and in the full measure of the Father's divine perfections. When we are in Christ, we are under the glory and fulness, that is in Christ.

Colossians 2:8, Paul wrote, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Then he writes, "For in him (Christ) dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This one Greek word Godhead is used only once in the N.T. And in Colossians 2:8, t means, the divine nature and perfections of the Father are in Christ. Another thing we must consider. Paul does not use Jesus' proper name, but his title as the Christ or Messiah. We are in the fulness of his authority as our King, Prophet, and High Priest.

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fulness of God."