The Arian Heresy

[placebofactor]

The following can be found in any history book.
Did early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God? Yes! Following the first three centuries are the thinking and works of the early 4th-century Catholic Church. The early Catholic Church worshipped Jesus as God, but certain Bishops within the church began to reject this teaching.

One in particular, his name, Arius, a Deacon of Alexandria Egypt, born 250 A.D. died, 336. His teaching gave rise to a theological doctrine known as Arianism. He maintained that "The Son of God was not;" He stated that the Son of God could not be co-eternal, co-essential, and co-equal with the Father. He reasoned that it was inconsistent and impossible, since the Father, who begat, must be before the Son, who was begotten, therefore, the Son could not be eternal. This is the obvious conclusion anyone would draw if they reasoned without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Athanasius was the chief opponent of the Arian doctrine. He is thought to be the author of the Athanasian Creed known in Latin as “Quicunque Vuit.” Athanasians fixed their reasoning on the sacred writer by scholastic terms, to which the Arians agreed, with various evasive exceptions.

Trinitarians assert that Jesus Christ is God. The Arians allowed it, but only in the same sense as holy men and angels are called, "gods" in Scripture, implying Jesus was not truly God, but a creation of the Father. Athanasius affirmed that Jesus was God, Arius said, "They are of God, of whom are all things."

In the early 4th century, Athanasian collected many texts, which amounted to evidence proving that the Son was of the same substance as the Father; Arians would admit only that Jesus was of like substance.
Arius was excommunicated as a heretic and banished to Illyricu. Several years passed when he and his followers were called back to Rome. The emperor insisted on his being received back into communion with the church of Alexandria. The church leaders refused to receive him, and in 326 Arius died suddenly.

As the years passed successive Emperors took opposing sides to this issue. The peace of the Catholic Church was in turmoil for many years, each side in their turn being excommunicated, fined, imprisoned, or banished depending on the emperor in power.

Eventually, the doctrine was accepted in Rome but considered heresy at Constantinople. Rome had divided into two, the Eastern and Western Empires, as did the Church, one in Rome, the other in Constantinople. Rome fixed the doctrine of the Trinity, while the African and Eastern Churches, supported Arianism or some of its subdivisions of articles.

The Arians were in no way unanimous but divided into various shades of thinking. From this came two distinctions, one being Arians, the other Semi-Arians. The Semi-Arians stripped the character of Jesus Christ into that of a mere creature, while the latter admitted everything except Jesus had absolute equality with the Father.

Little of Arianism was heard from until the 18th century. Arian and Semi-Arian teachings remained at odds with each other. Jesus was reduced to the rank of an angelic being. Does this sound familiar? Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Michael the archangel is Jesus Christ.

At the council of Nice in 325 A.D. the Catholic Church in Bithynia met for two months, intending to deal with the Arian heresy. Between 250 and 318 bishops of the church had gathered together. The Emperor Constantine attended, with Hosins, the bishop of Cordova Spain. He loved God, was a learned scholar, and elected to preside over the council. The profession of faith, or Nicene Creed was drawn up at Nice, and subscribed by all the bishops except a few Arian believers.

Many of the bishops in attendance had gone through some form of persecution at the hands of the Romans, most jailed or tortured in the name of Jesus Christ. Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

[onewithhim]

The following can be found in any history book.
Did early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God? Yes! Following the first three centuries are the thinking and works of the early 4th-century Catholic Church. The early Catholic Church worshipped Jesus as God, but certain Bishops within the church began to reject this teaching.

One in particular, his name, Arius, a Deacon of Alexandria Egypt, born 250 A.D. died, 336. His teaching gave rise to a theological doctrine known as Arianism. He maintained that "The Son of God was not;" He stated that the Son of God could not be co-eternal, co-essential, and co-equal with the Father. He reasoned that it was inconsistent and impossible, since the Father, who begat, must be before the Son, who was begotten, therefore, the Son could not be eternal. This is the obvious conclusion anyone would draw if they reasoned without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Athanasius was the chief opponent of the Arian doctrine. He is thought to be the author of the Athanasian Creed known in Latin as “Quicunque Vuit.” Athanasians fixed their reasoning on the sacred writer by scholastic terms, to which the Arians agreed, with various evasive exceptions.

Trinitarians assert that Jesus Christ is God. The Arians allowed it, but only in the same sense as holy men and angels are called, "gods" in Scripture, implying Jesus was not truly God, but a creation of the Father. Athanasius affirmed that Jesus was God, Arius said, "They are of God, of whom are all things."

In the early 4th century, Athanasian collected many texts, which amounted to evidence proving that the Son was of the same substance as the Father; Arians would admit only that Jesus was of like substance.
Arius was excommunicated as a heretic and banished to Illyricu. Several years passed when he and his followers were called back to Rome. The emperor insisted on his being received back into communion with the church of Alexandria. The church leaders refused to receive him, and in 326 Arius died suddenly.

As the years passed successive Emperors took opposing sides to this issue. The peace of the Catholic Church was in turmoil for many years, each side in their turn being excommunicated, fined, imprisoned, or banished depending on the emperor in power.

Eventually, the doctrine was accepted in Rome but considered heresy at Constantinople. Rome had divided into two, the Eastern and Western Empires, as did the Church, one in Rome, the other in Constantinople. Rome fixed the doctrine of the Trinity, while the African and Eastern Churches, supported Arianism or some of its subdivisions of articles.

The Arians were in no way unanimous but divided into various shades of thinking. From this came two distinctions, one being Arians, the other Semi-Arians. The Semi-Arians stripped the character of Jesus Christ into that of a mere creature, while the latter admitted everything except Jesus had absolute equality with the Father.

Little of Arianism was heard from until the 18th century. Arian and Semi-Arian teachings remained at odds with each other. Jesus was reduced to the rank of an angelic being. Does this sound familiar? Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Michael the archangel is Jesus Christ.

At the council of Nice in 325 A.D. the Catholic Church in Bithynia met for two months, intending to deal with the Arian heresy. Between 250 and 318 bishops of the church had gathered together. The Emperor Constantine attended, with Hosins, the bishop of Cordova Spain. He loved God, was a learned scholar, and elected to preside over the council. The profession of faith, or Nicene Creed was drawn up at Nice, and subscribed by all the bishops except a few Arian believers.

Many of the bishops in attendance had gone through some form of persecution at the hands of the Romans, most jailed or tortured in the name of Jesus Christ. Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

Some of the bishops at the Council believed in the Arian view, but they were argued down by other bishops. The coup de gras came with Constantine siding with the non-Arian-believing bishops. It was strictly a political move. Constantine was not a true Christian, no matter what someone wants to believe. He allowed pagan traditions to remain and even murdered someone in his household. It is because of this pagan emperor that the Trinity is alive and breathing today.

[Difflugia]

The following can be found in any history book.

[...]

Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

Can you turn this into a question? Even something simple like, "is Arianism true," or, "why does Arianism keep reappearing?"

As a debate site, one of the rules is that a new topic must have a clear question for debate. Statements of fact, even (or perhaps especially) long, well-researched ones, generally get moved to "Random Ramblings."

[1213]

The following can be found in any history book.
Did early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God?

I don't think so, for example because Paul says:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5

[placebofactor]

The following can be found in any history book.
Did early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God? Yes! Following the first three centuries are the thinking and works of the early 4th-century Catholic Church. The early Catholic Church worshipped Jesus as God, but certain Bishops within the church began to reject this teaching.

One in particular, his name, Arius, a Deacon of Alexandria Egypt, born 250 A.D. died, 336. His teaching gave rise to a theological doctrine known as Arianism. He maintained that "The Son of God was not;" He stated that the Son of God could not be co-eternal, co-essential, and co-equal with the Father. He reasoned that it was inconsistent and impossible, since the Father, who begat, must be before the Son, who was begotten, therefore, the Son could not be eternal. This is the obvious conclusion anyone would draw if they reasoned without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Athanasius was the chief opponent of the Arian doctrine. He is thought to be the author of the Athanasian Creed known in Latin as “Quicunque Vuit.” Athanasians fixed their reasoning on the sacred writer by scholastic terms, to which the Arians agreed, with various evasive exceptions.

Trinitarians assert that Jesus Christ is God. The Arians allowed it, but only in the same sense as holy men and angels are called, "gods" in Scripture, implying Jesus was not truly God, but a creation of the Father. Athanasius affirmed that Jesus was God, Arius said, "They are of God, of whom are all things."

In the early 4th century, Athanasian collected many texts, which amounted to evidence proving that the Son was of the same substance as the Father; Arians would admit only that Jesus was of like substance.
Arius was excommunicated as a heretic and banished to Illyricu. Several years passed when he and his followers were called back to Rome. The emperor insisted on his being received back into communion with the church of Alexandria. The church leaders refused to receive him, and in 326 Arius died suddenly.

As the years passed successive Emperors took opposing sides to this issue. The peace of the Catholic Church was in turmoil for many years, each side in their turn being excommunicated, fined, imprisoned, or banished depending on the emperor in power.

Eventually, the doctrine was accepted in Rome but considered heresy at Constantinople. Rome had divided into two, the Eastern and Western Empires, as did the Church, one in Rome, the other in Constantinople. Rome fixed the doctrine of the Trinity, while the African and Eastern Churches, supported Arianism or some of its subdivisions of articles.

The Arians were in no way unanimous but divided into various shades of thinking. From this came two distinctions, one being Arians, the other Semi-Arians. The Semi-Arians stripped the character of Jesus Christ into that of a mere creature, while the latter admitted everything except Jesus had absolute equality with the Father.

Little of Arianism was heard from until the 18th century. Arian and Semi-Arian teachings remained at odds with each other. Jesus was reduced to the rank of an angelic being. Does this sound familiar? Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Michael the archangel is Jesus Christ.

At the council of Nice in 325 A.D. the Catholic Church in Bithynia met for two months, intending to deal with the Arian heresy. Between 250 and 318 bishops of the church had gathered together. The Emperor Constantine attended, with Hosins, the bishop of Cordova Spain. He loved God, was a learned scholar, and elected to preside over the council. The profession of faith, or Nicene Creed was drawn up at Nice, and subscribed by all the bishops except a few Arian believers.

Many of the bishops in attendance had gone through some form of persecution at the hands of the Romans, most jailed or tortured in the name of Jesus Christ. Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

Some of the bishops at the Council believed in the Arian view, but they were argued down by other bishops. The coup de gras came with Constantine siding with the non-Arian-believing bishops. It was strictly a political move. Constantine was not a true Christian, no matter what someone wants to believe. He allowed pagan traditions to remain and even murdered someone in his household.

I often hear from certain people that, "Constantine was not a true Christian." Hmmm! I thought the Bible taught that no man is to judge another. The Lord said, "Judgement is mine." A man can ask for forgiveness, from the moment he is thrown from the saddle of a horse until he hits the ground. I believe like Cyrus the Great, Nebuchadnezzar, and others, Constantine was a vessel unto the Lord, a King sent for a particular mission.

It is because of this pagan emperor that the Trinity is alive and breathing today.

Baloney! It's because of men like Aries that create confusion and doubt. Let's see, who is it that denies the Trinity? I. Jehovah's Witnesses. 2. Mormons. 3. Atheists.
I would say, "The company the Witnesses keep is not very good.

[onewithhim]

The following can be found in any history book.
Did early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God? Yes! Following the first three centuries are the thinking and works of the early 4th-century Catholic Church. The early Catholic Church worshipped Jesus as God, but certain Bishops within the church began to reject this teaching.

One in particular, his name, Arius, a Deacon of Alexandria Egypt, born 250 A.D. died, 336. His teaching gave rise to a theological doctrine known as Arianism. He maintained that "The Son of God was not;" He stated that the Son of God could not be co-eternal, co-essential, and co-equal with the Father. He reasoned that it was inconsistent and impossible, since the Father, who begat, must be before the Son, who was begotten, therefore, the Son could not be eternal. This is the obvious conclusion anyone would draw if they reasoned without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Athanasius was the chief opponent of the Arian doctrine. He is thought to be the author of the Athanasian Creed known in Latin as “Quicunque Vuit.” Athanasians fixed their reasoning on the sacred writer by scholastic terms, to which the Arians agreed, with various evasive exceptions.

Trinitarians assert that Jesus Christ is God. The Arians allowed it, but only in the same sense as holy men and angels are called, "gods" in Scripture, implying Jesus was not truly God, but a creation of the Father. Athanasius affirmed that Jesus was God, Arius said, "They are of God, of whom are all things."

In the early 4th century, Athanasian collected many texts, which amounted to evidence proving that the Son was of the same substance as the Father; Arians would admit only that Jesus was of like substance.
Arius was excommunicated as a heretic and banished to Illyricu. Several years passed when he and his followers were called back to Rome. The emperor insisted on his being received back into communion with the church of Alexandria. The church leaders refused to receive him, and in 326 Arius died suddenly.

As the years passed successive Emperors took opposing sides to this issue. The peace of the Catholic Church was in turmoil for many years, each side in their turn being excommunicated, fined, imprisoned, or banished depending on the emperor in power.

Eventually, the doctrine was accepted in Rome but considered heresy at Constantinople. Rome had divided into two, the Eastern and Western Empires, as did the Church, one in Rome, the other in Constantinople. Rome fixed the doctrine of the Trinity, while the African and Eastern Churches, supported Arianism or some of its subdivisions of articles.

The Arians were in no way unanimous but divided into various shades of thinking. From this came two distinctions, one being Arians, the other Semi-Arians. The Semi-Arians stripped the character of Jesus Christ into that of a mere creature, while the latter admitted everything except Jesus had absolute equality with the Father.

Little of Arianism was heard from until the 18th century. Arian and Semi-Arian teachings remained at odds with each other. Jesus was reduced to the rank of an angelic being. Does this sound familiar? Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Michael the archangel is Jesus Christ.

At the council of Nice in 325 A.D. the Catholic Church in Bithynia met for two months, intending to deal with the Arian heresy. Between 250 and 318 bishops of the church had gathered together. The Emperor Constantine attended, with Hosins, the bishop of Cordova Spain. He loved God, was a learned scholar, and elected to preside over the council. The profession of faith, or Nicene Creed was drawn up at Nice, and subscribed by all the bishops except a few Arian believers.

Many of the bishops in attendance had gone through some form of persecution at the hands of the Romans, most jailed or tortured in the name of Jesus Christ. Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

Some of the bishops at the Council believed in the Arian view, but they were argued down by other bishops. The coup de gras came with Constantine siding with the non-Arian-believing bishops. It was strictly a political move. Constantine was not a true Christian, no matter what someone wants to believe. He allowed pagan traditions to remain and even murdered someone in his household.

I often hear from certain people that, "Constantine was not a true Christian." Hmmm! I thought the Bible taught that no man is to judge another. The Lord said, "Judgement is mine." A man can ask for forgiveness, from the moment he is thrown from the saddle of a horse until he hits the ground. I believe like Cyrus the Great, Nebuchadnezzar, and others, Constantine was a vessel unto the Lord, a King sent for a particular mission.

It is because of this pagan emperor that the Trinity is alive and breathing today.

Baloney! It's because of men like Aries that create confusion and doubt. Let's see, who is it that denies the Trinity? I. Jehovah's Witnesses. 2. Mormons. 3. Atheists.
I would say, "The company the Witnesses keep is not very good.

I think that the confusion was there before Arius. He was bringing to others' attention the fallacies of the thinking that Jesus is God.

Do you say to your relatives that they are being compared by you to Mormons and atheists?

[placebofactor]

The following can be found in any history book.

[...]

Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

Can you turn this into a question? Even something simple like, "is Arianism true," or, "why does Arianism keep reappearing?"

As a debate site, one of the rules is that a new topic must have a clear question for debate. Statements of fact, even (or perhaps especially) long, well-researched ones, generally get moved to "Random Ramblings."

Difflugia, I understand that there are those on this forum who reject Jesus as God, and the existence of the Holy Spirit. There are no more important matters than these. Millions of people are lost because they reject both teachings. There are times when only the history of these subjects may clear up incorrect teachings. History needs to be explained; I don't know of any shortcuts. I will do my best, but I will not leave any subject half-explained. To do so is nuts, we have too much of that nonsense in the Christian community today. Wishy, washy teachings leave too many questions. True understanding is all about details.

Here are my questions:
Do you recognize Tazz Russell as the founder of the Jehovah's Witness?

Did Tazz Russel follow the teaching of the Arian doctrine? He taught that Jesus is not God, but a god. He also rejected the doctrine of the Trinity.

On May 1, 1989, Watchtower, page 4. The Witnesses published the following. "In the early part of our 20th century prior to 1919, the Bible Students, as Jehovah's Witnesses were then known, had to be released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion .... Some were exalted creatures, indulging in a personality cult that focused on Charles T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." What the Witnesses had to confess is, all those that followed Russel from 1879 until 1919 were "practicing a false religion, indulging in a personality cult.

[onewithhim]

The following can be found in any history book.

[...]

Arian teaching is as old as the Catholic Church but is brought to the surface now and then by fringe groups, or individuals such as Taze Russel, the founder of the Jehovah Witnesses.

Can you turn this into a question? Even something simple like, "is Arianism true," or, "why does Arianism keep reappearing?"

As a debate site, one of the rules is that a new topic must have a clear question for debate. Statements of fact, even (or perhaps especially) long, well-researched ones, generally get moved to "Random Ramblings."

Difflugia, I understand that there are those on this forum who reject Jesus as God, and the existence of the Holy Spirit. There are no more important matters than these. Millions of people are lost because they reject both teachings. There are times when only the history of these subjects may clear up incorrect teachings. History needs to be explained; I don't know of any shortcuts. I will do my best, but I will not leave any subject half-explained. To do so is nuts, we have too much of that nonsense in the Christian community today. Wishy, washy teachings leave too many questions. True understanding is all about details.

Here are my questions:
Do you recognize Tazz Russell as the founder of the Jehovah's Witness?

Did Tazz Russel follow the teaching of the Arian doctrine? He taught that Jesus is not God, but a god. He also rejected the doctrine of the Trinity.

On May 1, 1989, Watchtower, page 4. The Witnesses published the following. "In the early part of our 20th century prior to 1919, the Bible Students, as Jehovah's Witnesses were then known, had to be released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion .... Some were exalted creatures, indulging in a personality cult that focused on Charles T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." What the Witnesses had to confess is, all those that followed Russel from 1879 until 1919 were "practicing a false religion, indulging in a personality cult.

Charles Taze Russell was not the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus Christ was the Founder. (He is called "the true Witness" at Rev. 3:14. The true Witness of what? Of his Father Jehovah. Therefore he is the first and greatest Witness of Jehovah in the first century.) We go way back to him for our teachings on who God is, and the Trinity wasn't a part of it. Russell brought back the pure unadulterated teachings of Jesus, out of a confused mess of doctrines that had no relation to the truth that Jesus taught. Hell-fire, the immortality of the soul, the Trinity, and the teaching that the Holy
Spirit is a person were understood to be false, as a close study of the Bible brought out.

I don't know where you get the idea that from 1879 to 1919 the Witnesses were "practicing a false religion, indulging in a personality cult." How do you come to that conclusion? How were JWs placing Russell's personality in the forefront?

[Difflugia]

Difflugia, I understand that there are those on this forum who reject Jesus as God, and the existence of the Holy Spirit. There are no more important matters than these. Millions of people are lost because they reject both teachings. There are times when only the history of these subjects may clear up incorrect teachings. History needs to be explained; I don't know of any shortcuts. I will do my best, but I will not leave any subject half-explained. To do so is nuts, we have too much of that nonsense in the Christian community today. Wishy, washy teachings leave too many questions. True understanding is all about details.

I'm not complaining about the amount of detail, but giving some advice about form. A suggested one is to put a question in an initial post, then put the explanation (however long and detailed) in an immediate followup post in the same thread.

Here are my questions:
Do you recognize Tazz Russell as the founder of the Jehovah's Witness?

I'm not a Witness, but yes. My understanding is that Charles Taze Russell founded the Watch Tower Society.

Did Tazz Russel follow the teaching of the Arian doctrine? He taught that Jesus is not God, but a god. He also rejected the doctrine of the Trinity.

Yes.

My personal view is that the Trinity as such is a harmonization of multiple distinct Christologies present in the New Testament. The Gospel of John isn't exactly trinitarian in the modern, orthodox sense, but Jesus and the Father are nontheless both Yahweh in hypostatic union. The Christology of John shapes the overall doctrine of the Trinity, which is imposed onto the rest of the New Testament writings. However, no two New Testament authors agree on the nature of Christ and they cannot be satisfactorily harmonized.

I'm also atheist.

[Difflugia]

I don't know where you get the idea that from 1879 to 1919 the Witnesses were "practicing a false religion, indulging in a personality cult." How do you come to that conclusion? How were JWs placing Russell's personality in the forefront?

Watchtower Online Library, The Watchtower, May 1, 1989, paragraph 10.