The Exodus! Did it Really Happen?

[POI]

The Bible claims an Exodus took place. Many state it was not an actual event. Since the Bible makes a positive claim, in that an 'Exodus" took place, do we have positive evidence to support the claim?

For Debate:

1. Outside the Bible saying so, do we have evidence? If so, what?

2. If it should turn out that the Exodus did not take place, does this fact sway the Christian believer's position at all? Or, does it not matter one way or another?

[POI]

... to the claim that an Exodus took place, how in the heck can you Christians logically retain your position in holding to this belief system? Surely a claim, as large as this one, would leave behind all sorts of stuff....

That is funny expectation, considering that you probably believe that humans have existed over 200000 years and didn't leave behind all short of stuff most of that time. But, what stuff you think should be remaining?

Please watch the provided video - (about 9 minutes long). I'm not going to type a text wall.

[TRANSPONDER]

... to the claim that an Exodus took place, how in the heck can you Christians logically retain your position in holding to this belief system? Surely a claim, as large as this one, would leave behind all sorts of stuff....

That is funny expectation, considering that you probably believe that humans have existed over 200000 years and didn't leave behind all short of stuff most of that time. But, what stuff you think should be remaining?

.

You should see the flaw in that argument without me having to point it out.

Why do you think we believe humans have been around 200,000 years and more? Because we found the stuff they left behind.

We also found negative evidence that limited the humungs to particular parts of the world, suggesting that at least our tribal ancestors came from one part of the world. This is called evidence, and the lack of it and also the conditions not suiting the Bible story, is why we doubt.

The matter was discussed at length on one thread or the other and the support for Hebrews in Egypt is very thin. There were Canaanites for sure, and they even ruled Egypt for a while. Since Hebrews when they first appeared in Canaan around 11th c BC had the customs and culture of Canaan, of course Canaanites can be made to look like Hebrews, and even the Canaanite script the Hebrews used is passed off as 'proto - hebrew.' But it doesn't fit the Biblical narrative, which is anachronistic and makes no sense. A demographically distinct people living in Egypt until enslaved and apparently already with a tribal structure but it seems not knowing their personal god yet. It makes no sense even before the anachronism of going to a land already ruled by Egyptian governors, and going into Sinai to avoid a country that didn't exist until after Israel appeared in Canaan.

It all smacks of a fudged up story concocted long after the event, and after I read Josephus on the Shepherd kings, a suspicion that Moses was really Ahmose became firmed up as Josephus (no doubt following earlier writers) identified the Hyksos with the Exodus. The Hyksos really cannot be made into the Hebrews even if Ahmose did push them out of Egypt rather than Moses (story borrowed from Sargon in the bulrushes) leading them out of Egypt.

In short, evidence leads us to conclude that humans evolved 2 hundred thou. and more years ago, while more and more evidence suggests the Exodus story must be wrong. Along with so much else in the Bible.

[1213]

...Why do you think we believe humans have been around 200,000 years and more? Because we found the stuff they left behind...

Ok, you seem to believe anything very easily.

But why no computers and great cities that are over 100000 years old? Why only lately (about 6000 years) we have developed things noticeably?

...a suspicion that Moses was really Ahmose...

I believe Moses was more likely known in Egypt with the name Senmut.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Why do you think we believe humans have been around 200,000 years and more? Because we found the stuff they left behind...

Ok, you seem to believe anything very easily.

But why no computers and great cities that are over 100000 years old? Why only lately (about 6000 years) we have developed things noticeably?

...a suspicion that Moses was really Ahmose...

I believe Moses was more likely known in Egypt with the name Senmut.

You appear just to be doing wind -ups now, not proper arguments. You are unaware of the archaeological and palaeontological material left by the ancient humans? Why your problem with the slow pace of evolution? The industrial revolution only got going a few hundred years ago; the bronze age a few thousand years ago farming communities more than ten thousand years ago. Why would you expect great cities and computers? As a young earthist I suppose you have a different view of the evolution of human society, but the evidence is there despite your denial and not knowing or not accepting the evidence.

And what on earth makes you think that Moses' Egyptian name was Senmut? i seem to recall a celebrated architect or vizir of that name in Egyptian records. So of course you have to claim that was Moses?

Problem, I am sure Senmut is pre new Kingdom, which means no chariots, until Egypt copied them from the Hyksos, so the story of Joseph riding around in a chariot puts him new Kingdom date and the exodus and moses has to happen later than Joseph.

So I don't know which Senmut you want to identify with Moses. I still very much like a tall tale written in Babylon and drawing on Babylonian material and records, with the Hyksos misidentified as Hebrews .

[otseng]

Ok, you seem to believe anything very easily.

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[1213]

....Why your problem with the slow pace of evolution? The industrial revolution only got going a few hundred years ago; the bronze age a few thousand years ago farming communities more than ten thousand years ago. Why would you expect great cities and computers?

If it all took about 6000 years, I would expect it to happen a lot earlier, if humans have existed over 200000 years, because I don't know any good reason why not. Can you tell why humans waited hundred thousand years before started to develop things the way we can see in last 6000 years?

And what on earth makes you think that Moses' Egyptian name was Senmut? ...

Because his story looks the same as the story of Moses, but from Egyptian point of view.

[POI]

if humans have existed over 200000 years

Please stop with the red herring and provide evidence(s) for an Exodus. If you cannot demonstrate that an Exodus actually took place, this seems pretty damning to your faith.

[TRANSPONDER]

....Why your problem with the slow pace of evolution? The industrial revolution only got going a few hundred years ago; the bronze age a few thousand years ago farming communities more than ten thousand years ago. Why would you expect great cities and computers?

If it all took about 6000 years, I would expect it to happen a lot earlier, if humans have existed over 200000 years, because I don't know any good reason why not. Can you tell why humans waited hundred thousand years before started to develop things the way we can see in last 6000 years?

And what on earth makes you think that Moses' Egyptian name was Senmut? ...

Because his story looks the same as the story of Moses, but from Egyptian point of view.

Because - the evidence shows - the development of community, civilisation and technology was a slow process. the organisation and communication of research and information has pushed it along at a fast pace, but it was much slower before then. There is no serious case for there being some kind of advanced technology or massive cities more than ten thousand years BC.

But as to Senmut - of course he was the noted advisor and architect of Hatshepsut, and yes, they had chariots by then, And it would even fit with the possible timeline of Tuthmosis son of Hatshepsut getting tough with the Hebrews, having to make bricks to build Akhenaten's new capital, and Moses could indeed have intimidated Akhenaten (1) into letting them trek into the city states of Canaan as Akenaten let Egyptian rule slip. It is about the only time the Exodus would fit.

But of course, Senmut would have to be Joseph, not Moses. But considering all the talk about Senmut and Hatshepsut, the story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife would have to be re - written, but you are quite good at rewriting the Bible

(1) one could even argue the experience kickstarted Akhenaten's monotheistic god - belief.Except that Aten -worship was known in his father's time, though Akhenaten made it the Only religion allowed.

[1213]

if humans have existed over 200000 years

Please stop with the red herring and provide evidence(s) for an Exodus. If you cannot demonstrate that an Exodus actually took place, this seems pretty damning to your faith.

I don't think anything from history can be demonstrated. I believe things went as told in the Bible. And for me the existence of the Bible is one evidence for that the things went as told in the Bible.

[1213]

...
But of course, Senmut would have to be Joseph, ...

I think Joseph was more likely called Imhotep in Egypt.