There's a big difference between a footnote listing a possibility and an "approved" reading.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:03 amAccording to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.
- It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
"Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,
So, thus far, you've only established that either rendition is
possible. Let's keep that in mind.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:03 amAlthough the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely in Psalms 45 verse 7.
PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8
- Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalms 45. The footnote [ *] to Psalms 45:7 in the Catholic NABRE states that {quote} "Heb 1:8 applies Ps 45v7 to Christ." {end quote} . With this in mind, note how the the Catholic Jerusalem Bible renders Psalms 45:7.
You've combined partial quotes from three different sources which disagree with each other in a way that suggests agreement. This is also known as
quote mining.
- Hebrews 1:8 is a direct quote from Psalms 45 in the Septuagint (or 44 as they're numbered there). This will be extremely important in a moment.
- The New American Bible translates the verse differently than the Jerusalem Bible. The NABRE footnote refers to the verse translated this way:
Your throne, O God, stands forever;
your royal scepter is a scepter for justice.
- You omitted more than half of the footnote. Here's the whole thing:
O God: the king, in courtly language, is called “god,” i.e., more than human, representing God to the people. Heb 1:8–9 applies Ps 45:7–8 to Christ.
This means several things. First, it's clear that the opinion of the NABRE translators think the author of Hebrews is applying the very term "god" to Christ. That's exactly opposite the point you're trying to make.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:03 amTaking the Catholic reasoning to its natural conclusion then, if Psalms "applies to Christ" and Hebrews quotes Psalms, then Hebrews must mean that Jesus throne is from God.
CONCLUSION Catholic Bibles recognise ...
Second, "the Catholic reasoning" is clearly not a unified monolith. The translators of The Jerusalem Bible and the New American Bible don't agree. You've found a single Catholic Bible that has the translation you want and would have us believe that it applies to some plurality of "Catholic Bibles." This is a particularly poor mistake given that you actually quoted a counterexample.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:03 am... that the Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God".
Third, you're confusing things a bit. There is no "Hebrew" of Hebrews 1:8, nor of Psalms 45 as far as the book of Hebrews is concerned. The quotation from Hebrews 1:8 is nearly word-for-word from the Septuagint (the author of Hebrews added an extra "and" and "the"), so it's unlikely to be independent. With
that in mind, Psalms 45:7 does give us some important information on how to translate Hebrews 1:8.
You quoted A. T. Robinson earlier as saying, "It is not certain whether
ho theos is here the vocative." Interestingly, the Septuagint translation uses a vocative in several other verses of this psalm. The Greek word
δυνατός means "mighty" and is used in verses 4 and 6 with a vocative ending,
-έ to mean, "O mighty one" (verse 6 in the Septuagint reads, "Your arrows are sharp, O mighty one!"). Similarly, "daughter" (
θυγάτηρ) in verse 11 has a vocative ending (
θύγατερ), "O daughter." With three other examples in a psalm of only eighteen verses, it seems far more likely that
ὁ θεός of verse 7 is intended in its vocative sense, as well.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:03 amBased on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that this translation, which is grammatically sound, better reflects the writer's implied intention.
I think it's funny how your claim takes on an entirely different meaning when presented with complete quotations and more context.
For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
https://ancientlanguage.com/attic-greek/
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