Lake of fire

[achilles12604]

Question for everyone. The lake of fire referred to by the traditional Christian/ Catholic/ Fundi churches.

Is it literally a lake of fire? It is figurative? Other?

[EBA]

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.(Isaiah 45:22-23)

It it saying that the offer of salvation is extended to all humans. It is up to them to accept this salvation through Jesus Christ, but if they don't they won't be saved. "Every knee" refers to those who accept the offer of salvation. Many humans will not.

"The wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, They vanish---like smoke they vanish away." (Psalm 37:20, NASB)

I disagree

That is not an offer, it is a declaration- .

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth-

-that God swares by-

-I have sworn by myself,-

and it will come to pass.

the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Second witness:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (Phillipians 2:10)

Heaven, earth and under the earth. That is everybody!

How many witnesses does it take to establish the truth?

-at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15)

Second witness:

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Matthew 18:16)

Third witness:

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Corinthians 13:1)

Here we have a declaration from God:

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.(Isaiah 45:22-23)

Then your opinion of what it means:

It it saying that the offer of salvation is extended to all humans. It is up to them to accept this salvation through Jesus Christ, but if they don't they won't be saved. "Every knee" refers to those who accept the offer of salvation. Many humans will not.

When reading Isaiah 45:22-23 I see no offer or any penalty for rejection here. There is nothing in the verse to insinuate that anyone will reject God’s salvation. Quite the opposite in fact.

You then offer this verse to substantiate your claim:

"The wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, They vanish---like smoke they vanish away." (Psalm 37:20, NASB)

That is a false witness.

I will continue in the next post.

[EBA]

Psalm 37:20 and Isaiah 45:22-23 do not witness to each other. One declares salvation to all and the other states that “(t)he wicked will perish" yet they are both absolutely true.

If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; (Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,- (Revelation 20:6) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?)(1 Corinthians 6:2)
And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. (Deuteronomy 19:16-19)

You cited:

"The wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, They vanish---like smoke they vanish away." (Psalm 37:20, NASB)

Well, the same thing happens to a false witness:

A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly. (Proverbs 21:28)

Is it true? Of course.

Now I'm not writing all this to prove that you are a false witness. No my point is that when people perish they can and will be redeemed. Either now through Gehenna fire or later through the lake of fire. Either way it is all Christ doing the saving.

Let’s take a look at the word “perish” from Strong’s H6.

'abad
aw-bad'
a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee. (King James Bible Strong's Hebrew Dictionary)

So to perish means to “wander away” to “lose oneself” or by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy etc…..

Are false witnesses lost? Are the wicked lost? Have they not “wander(ed) away” like lost sheep?

Thank God we have a good shepherd.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (John 10:11)

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost (apollumi). (Mat 18:11)

And what does apollumi mean?

apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
from- apo 575 and the base of - olethros 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It means to perish. lose, destroy fully etc....

For whosoever will save his life shall lose (apollumi) it; but whosoever shall lose (apollumi) his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. (Mark 8:35)

So yes Jesus Christ has the power to redeem all that are lost, fully destroyed, dead, marred and perished.

That is who Christ is:

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

Second witness:

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (John 4:42)

That is what we need to believe in order to be saved.

Continuing as false witnesses (which I myself have been guilty of) will lead us here:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies. (Proverbs 14:5)

God bless and peace.

[onewithhim]

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.(Isaiah 45:22-23)

It it saying that the offer of salvation is extended to all humans. It is up to them to accept this salvation through Jesus Christ, but if they don't they won't be saved. "Every knee" refers to those who accept the offer of salvation. Many humans will not.

"The wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, They vanish---like smoke they vanish away." (Psalm 37:20, NASB)

I disagree

That is not an offer, it is a declaration- .

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth-

-that God swares by-

-I have sworn by myself,-

and it will come to pass.

the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Second witness:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (Phillipians 2:10)

Heaven, earth and under the earth. That is everybody!

How many witnesses does it take to establish the truth?

-at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. (Deuteronomy 19:15)

Second witness:

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Matthew 18:16)

Third witness:

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Corinthians 13:1)

Here we have a declaration from God:

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.(Isaiah 45:22-23)

Then your opinion of what it means:

It it saying that the offer of salvation is extended to all humans. It is up to them to accept this salvation through Jesus Christ, but if they don't they won't be saved. "Every knee" refers to those who accept the offer of salvation. Many humans will not.

When reading Isaiah 45:22-23 I see no offer or any penalty for rejection here. There is nothing in the verse to insinuate that anyone will reject God’s salvation. Quite the opposite in fact.

You then offer this verse to substantiate your claim:

"The wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, They vanish---like smoke they vanish away." (Psalm 37:20, NASB)

That is a false witness.

I will continue in the next post.

Not every knee will bow to the glory of God the Father. Many will be destroyed. God wants all people to come to repentance and that's why He says that he offers them a choice and hopes that they will want to follow Him. Those that do choose to side with Him and His commands will live. They are the "all" that the verses talk about. The wicked are not included in that.

How can you say that Psalm 37:20 is a "false witness"? Do you cherry-pick which verses you want to believe and ignore those you don't?

[onewithhim]

Psalm 37:20 and Isaiah 45:22-23 do not witness to each other. One declares salvation to all and the other states that “(t)he wicked will perish" yet they are both absolutely true.

If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; (Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,- (Revelation 20:6) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?)(1 Corinthians 6:2)
And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. (Deuteronomy 19:16-19)

You cited:

"The wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, They vanish---like smoke they vanish away." (Psalm 37:20, NASB)

Well, the same thing happens to a false witness:

A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly. (Proverbs 21:28)

Is it true? Of course.

Now I'm not writing all this to prove that you are a false witness. No my point is that when people perish they can and will be redeemed. Either now through Gehenna fire or later through the lake of fire. Either way it is all Christ doing the saving.

Let’s take a look at the word “perish” from Strong’s H6.

'abad
aw-bad'
a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee. (King James Bible Strong's Hebrew Dictionary)

So to perish means to “wander away” to “lose oneself” or by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy etc…..

Now according to your own source the definition of "perish" is also to be "destroyed, be undone, have no way to flee".....you notice that the word "destroy" is used more than once in your comment.
Oxford dictionary: Perish: "be destroyed; suffer death or ruin." That is how people on the earth today understand the word "perish."
" " : Destroy: "end the existence of." The common understanding, and one that Strong's Hebrew Dictionary really doesn't reject.

Your own definition agrees with these definitions. And "Destroyed" means ended the existence of. What is the final outcome for someone who has "wandered away"? He will be destroyed unless he comes to his senses and returns to God. (Who is the false witness here on this thread? You contradict yourself over and over again. You say that all people will be saved and then you turn around and say that a "false witness" will perish.)

[EBA]

Now according to your own source the definition of "perish" is also to be "destroyed, be undone, have no way to flee".....you notice that the word "destroy" is used more than once in your comment.
Oxford dictionary: Perish: "be destroyed; suffer death or ruin." That is how people on the earth today understand the word "perish."
" " : Destroy: "end the existence of." The common understanding, and one that Strong's Hebrew Dictionary really doesn't reject.

And neither do I. That’s why I stated:

So yes Jesus Christ has the power to redeem all that are lost, fully destroyed, dead, marred and perished.

Say, did you notice that I said “fully destroyed.”

You do realize you must me lost in order to be saved right?

Do you also know that you have to be destroyed to be saved?

Your own definition agrees with these definitions. And "Destroyed" means ended the existence of. What is the final outcome for someone who has "wandered away"?

Let’s let Christ answer that:

For the Son of man is come TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST. (according to you, man must come to his senses and save himself.)
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? (you do know Christ is the Good Shepherd right?)
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should PERISH. (Matt 18:11-14)

That’s right. The Father's will is that not one should perish!!!

According to you, though, it is his will for them to perish. Further more he doesn't just let them perish, he's created a means to annihilate them.

He will be destroyed unless he comes to his senses and returns to God.

That is an unscriptural opinion. An idol of the heart.

(Who is the false witness here on this thread? You contradict yourself over and over again. You say that all people will be saved and then you turn around and say that a "false witness" will perish.)

The only thing I’ve contradicted is just your doctrine.

Blue, bold, underlined and CAPITALIZATION emphases mine.

[Capbook]

Sinners will become ashes.

That’s just not scriptural. I’m guessing you learned that in church.

Accepting the offer of salvation through faith in Jesus.

Show me scripture that tells us salvation is offered.

You quote Phil 2:10, as you say for everyone.
How about those sinners who died unbeliever? Are they included to "everyone"

Of course they are. I’m not sure why the word “everyone” needs to be defined so much on this forum.

How about those who died unbeliever?
Cannot repent.
Cannot drink the water of life.
Cannot chose to accept the gospel.

They will all have their place in the lake of fire but they will not be annihilated. Destroyed yes, but not annihilated beyond recovery.
And once the lake of fire is done with them they will believe, repent, drink the water of life freely and accept everything God has to offer including the gospel.

Peace.

You did not read Ezek 28:18, ashes comes to those who do sins.
And review your used text, the "everyone" refers to believers.
Phil 2:10, "at the name of Jesus" they know and believer of Jesus.
And you use Isaiah, they are those who accept the offer of the gospel. Gospel is the good news of Jesus. "Everyone" refers to believers.

[onewithhim]

Now according to your own source the definition of "perish" is also to be "destroyed, be undone, have no way to flee".....you notice that the word "destroy" is used more than once in your comment.
Oxford dictionary: Perish: "be destroyed; suffer death or ruin." That is how people on the earth today understand the word "perish."
" " : Destroy: "end the existence of." The common understanding, and one that Strong's Hebrew Dictionary really doesn't reject.

And neither do I. That’s why I stated:

So yes Jesus Christ has the power to redeem all that are lost, fully destroyed, dead, marred and perished.

Say, did you notice that I said “fully destroyed.”

You do realize you must me lost in order to be saved right?

Do you also know that you have to be destroyed to be saved?

Your own definition agrees with these definitions. And "Destroyed" means ended the existence of. What is the final outcome for someone who has "wandered away"?

Let’s let Christ answer that:

For the Son of man is come TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST. (according to you, man must come to his senses and save himself.)
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? (you do know Christ is the Good Shepherd right?)
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should PERISH. (Matt 18:11-14)

That’s right. The Father's will is that not one should perish!!!

According to you, though, it is his will for them to perish. Further more he doesn't just let them perish, he's created a means to annihilate them.

He will be destroyed unless he comes to his senses and returns to God.

That is an unscriptural opinion. An idol of the heart.

(Who is the false witness here on this thread? You contradict yourself over and over again. You say that all people will be saved and then you turn around and say that a "false witness" will perish.)

The only thing I’ve contradicted is just your doctrine.

Blue, bold, underlined and CAPITALIZATION emphases mine.

You have not contradicted "my" doctrine. You continue to contradict yourself. It is not God's desire to have anyone perish, but the wicked He will have to do away with to ensure peace and security on the earth. God doesn't want anyone to perish and "he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9b) This indicates that some will be destroyed, and God is waiting for all men to turn around and repent so that they will NOT be destroyed.

You continue to say that the knowledge that some will be destroyed is "an idol of the heart," or false doctrine. Can you explain Psalm 37: 9,10, 20?

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." ..."The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume [or, be consumed]; into smoke shall they consume away." (KJV)

The NASB puts verse 20 this way: But the wicked will perish; and the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, they vanish---like smoke they vanish away."

Please explain, if none are to perish.

[EBA]

You did not read Ezek 28:18, ashes comes to those who do sins.

Please don't accuse me of something when you don't even know me. If you wish to prove something then prove it.

And review your used text, the "everyone" refers to believers.

That logic is just not.

Phil 2:10, "at the name of Jesus" they know and believer of Jesus.
And you use Isaiah, they are those who accept the offer of the gospel. Gospel is the good news of Jesus. "Everyone" refers to believers.

Well maybe your definition of everyone is not everyone but that is just not how I was taught.

[EBA]

You have not contradicted "my" doctrine.

Look, if we are to have a conversation, honesty has to be at it’s core.

I certainly have contradicted your doctrine.

You continue to contradict yourself. It is not God's desire to have anyone perish, but the wicked He will have to do away with to ensure peace and security on the earth.

You know that when you say this you make God out to be very weak.

You seem to think God is man.

I’m going to give you a bit of wisdom here. Take it or leave it.

When God desires something that something will happen:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (H4610 desire)
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I have purposed it I WILL ALSO DO IT(Isa 46:10-11)

God doesn't want anyone to perish and "he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9b) This indicates that some will be destroyed, and God is waiting for all men to turn around and repent so that they will NOT be destroyed.

Everyone must be destroyed it’s part of the process of salvation.

God does not wait on us. We wait for God.

And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. (2 Thes 3:5)

You continue to say that the knowledge that some will be destroyed is "an idol of the heart," or false doctrine. Can you explain Psalm 37: 9,10, 20?

Your doctrine teaches that God will destroy (annihilate) the wicked.

Will he destroy wickedness?
Absolutely.
Will he destroy the wicked person?
Absolutely.
Will he annihilate them. Absolutely not.

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." ..."The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume [or, be consumed]; into smoke shall they consume away." (KJV)

True, they will not be wicked anymore; They WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS!

That wicked person will learn righteousness through the destruction of the flesh, the carnal mind and will become righteous; he/she will no longer be a wicked person.

That is the truth.

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL learn righteousness. (Isa 26:9)

The NASB puts verse 20 this way: But the wicked will perish; and the enemies of the LORD will be like the flowers of the pastures, they vanish---like smoke they vanish away."

Please explain, if none are to perish.

I’ll let the scriptures explain:

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:13-15)

Do you think John was mistaken when he said:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mat 3:11)

Continuing with 1 Cor 3 verses16-17 we read:

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How does God destroy “any man (that) defile the temple of God”?

Well we just read it in verse 15:

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but-

But what?

-but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Peace.

[Capbook]

You did not read Ezek 28:18, ashes comes to those who do sins.

Please don't accuse me of something when you don't even know me. If you wish to prove something then prove it.

And review your used text, the "everyone" refers to believers.

That logic is just not.

Phil 2:10, "at the name of Jesus" they know and believer of Jesus.
And you use Isaiah, they are those who accept the offer of the gospel. Gospel is the good news of Jesus. "Everyone" refers to believers.

Well maybe your definition of everyone is not everyone but that is just not how I was taught.

Then how do you understand Ezek 28:18? That mentions ashes.