Does Hell Exist?

[Data]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

[JehovahsWitness]

So, is this what you believe “eternal” means?:[/color]

Aionios Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 68
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

When refering to humans, yes option #3

[EBA]

So, is this what you believe “eternal” means?:

Aionios Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 68
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

When refering to humans, yes option #3

I see, so you and trinitarians both believe that Christ is eternal but neither of you can agree on what “eternal” means.

Thanks for the link, by the way. I remember reading this article years ago but with all my notes it is tedious to find certain things I’m looking for. Now it’s bookmarked.

I’m surprised to find that after reading this article, you still use the term eternal, especially when you are not a trinitarian.

I agree with the author here that aion should be translated “age” or “eon.”

In Ephesians alone, aion has been translated in the KJV the following ways: 1:21 "world;" 2:2 "course [of this world];" 2:7 "ages;" 3:9 "beginning of the world;" 3:11 "eternal;" 3:21 "world without end;" 6:12 "world." This seems to be a strange assortment of English words to represent just one Greek word! As we look at other verses, the confusion even gets worse! Translate aion consistently as "age" or "eon" and we do not have this confusion. https://pluto.sitetackle.com/15577/?sub ... 0beginning.

If we come to terms that aion is an age then the following is true:

The adjective aionios comes from the noun aion and is defined: "pertaining to or belonging to the eons." It is an axiom of grammar that an adjective derived from a noun cannot mean more than its parent word. It must retain the essential meaning pertaining to the noun. As it has been shown, the noun refers to limited time, which had a beginning and will have an end. The adjective, then, should not be translated by such words as "everlasting" or "eternal." The adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived. For example, hourly, an adjective, pertains to an hour, not to a year. https://pluto.sitetackle.com/15577/?sub ... 0beginning.

Peace.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, is this what you believe “eternal” means?:

Aionios Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 68
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

When refering to humans, yes option #3

...

Thanks for the link

You are welcome. Ok so now do you see that both the idea of everlasting life (and its opposite, everlasting death) are biblical ideas.

... I still think the term eternal death makes no sense and neither does eternal life...I don't subscribe to those terms.

[EBA]

[You are welcome. Ok so now do you see that both the idea of everlasting life (and its opposite, everlasting death) are biblical ideas.

... I still think the term eternal death makes no sense and neither does eternal life...I don't subscribe to those terms.

Not at all.

Just because certain translations speak of “everlasting life” (which I believe are poor translations) does not give anyone the authority to believe in the opposite, “everlasting death.” Especially when these same translations do not speak of it.

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. (1 Cor 4:6)

You can’t have “everlasting death” if as you say:

- the condition will cease to exist.

That is a contradiction.

The word everlasting is just as poor a translation as eternal.

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Pet 1:11)

Is Christ’s kingdom everlasting? Does he reign forever?

Peace

[JehovahsWitness]

... I still think the term eternal death makes no sense and neither does eternal life...I don't subscribe to those terms.[/color]

Regardless of the English term you choose to "subscribe" to (I take it you have invented an entirely new English word that you are comfortable using) I'm still confused as to what you find difficult to accept in the idea of life continuing indefinitely.

I presume you accept that your life started at some point in time; that you are currently alive. Do you believe it would be impossible for God to keep you alive indefinitely should he decide to do so?

JOHN 3:16 King James Bible

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Further reading: https://studybible.info/strongs/G166

[EBA]

... I still think the term eternal death makes no sense and neither does eternal life...I don't subscribe to those terms.

Regardless of the English term you choose to "subscribe" to (I take it you have invented an entirely new English word that you are comfortable using)

Now why would you say something like that. Are you not following our conversation? Did you not see in post Post #232 where I said:

I agree with the author here that aion should be translated “age” or “eon.”

I'm still confused as to what you find difficult to accept in the idea of life continuing indefinitely.

Well, it’s simple. I believe scripture:

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Cor 15:53)

When does mortal man become immortal?

It seems you and most of Christianity think it starts the minute they believe that God “gave his only begotten Son” and “believeth in him.”

Is that what you believe. Are you immortal? Do you now have everlasting life. If not, then when does your everlasting life start?

I presume you accept that your life started at some point in time; that you are currently alive. Do you believe it would be impossible for God to keep you alive indefinitely should he decide to do so?

JOHN 3:16 King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You posted a link but did you bother to look at the first definition of G166 where it states:

“lasting for an age”

Or did you just scroll to the bottom to find the definition that fits your doctrine?

Here’s how the Concordant Literal Version translates JOHN 3:16:

For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."

And if you had read post 232 you might have seen that:

It is an axiom of grammar that an adjective derived from a noun cannot mean more than its parent word. It must retain the essential meaning pertaining to the noun. As it has been shown, the noun refers to limited time, which had a beginning and will have an end. The adjective, then, should not be translated by such words as "everlasting" or "eternal." The adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived. For example, hourly, an adjective, pertains to an hour, not to a year.

In other words aionios cannot take on a greater meaning than aion.

And if I click on the link you provided we see that “aion” (G165) means:

an age, a cycle of time
an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

And since aionios cannot take on a greater meaning than aion it cannot mean "eternal" or "everlasting".

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That 1000 years is an age, an eon, an aion.

It is what we are promised in John 3:16.

Peace.

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm still confused as to what you find difficult to accept in the idea of life continuing indefinitely.

Well, it’s simple. I believe scripture:

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Cor 15:53)

1. Since when does immortality mean life that ends? If that immortal life began and continues indefinitely is it not "unending" or "everlasting"?

2. If you believe scripture why do you not believe Jesus did not use the word "immortality" in John 3:16.

3. Since Jesus used a word that can be understood to be

... a series of ages stretching to infinity

what is the objection to the idea of a person having life that essentially continues to ---> "infinity"<---- ?

[EBA]

1. Since when does immortality mean life that ends? If that immortal life began and continues indefinitely is it not "unending" or "everlasting"?

Now we’re getting somewhere.
So I’ll ask you again:

When does mortal man become immortal?

Are you immortal? Do you now have everlasting life. If not, then when does your everlasting life start?

These are important questions.

2. If you believe scripture why do you not believe Jesus did not use the word "immortality" in John 3:16.

1. Because he didn’t walk around speaking English.
2. Because there is a Greek word that can be translated immortality and it isn’t “aionios”.
3. He was teaching the Kingdom of God which happens to contain a very special age.

3. Since Jesus used a word that can be understood to be

... a series of ages stretching to infinity

what is the objection to the idea of a person having life that essentially continues to ---> "infinity"<---- ?

You cut off the definition and created your own here.

Let’s go over the definition:

"and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity."

An aion is “ONE of a series of ages” not “a series of ages” as you would like to think.

The whole point in stating that you will obtain eoinian life is show you there is an aion the Elect will live through and another aion which follows that they will also live through. And after that another aion which may very well be the last.

So you can argue all day long about what everlasting, eternal, immortality, endless, infinite or any other word that denotes endless time, but when it comes to aion and aionios they just don’t fit that bill.

[Capbook]

How do you understand John 3:16? Especially the word "perish" and "everlasting life".

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(NKJV)

Sorry for that late response, I’ve been on vacation.

We just read that everyone will believe in due time:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (Phillipians 2:10)

However John 3:16 is letting us know there is something special for believers and here it is:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)

That is “everlasting” life.

Now, what is it you must believe in order to obtain the first resurrection and how do you come by that belief?

Peace.

You did not address the word "perish" in John 3:16. There are those who will perish, who are they?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #239]

Those that attain to the first resurrection are those who rule with Christ in heaven---a relatively small number (144,000). They are anointed, to live in the spirit realm. Mortal man will continue to live on the earth, under the auspices of Christ and his co-rulers, forever, though they are not immortal. Immortality belongs to Christ and his Holy Ones. (Daniel 7:18) Men will continue to be mortal---they can die---but they will not die as long as they obey God's commands, unlike Adam and Eve. (They were created mortal, and the only one with immortality even at that time was Christ. I Timothy 6:16.) Though mortal, A&E were told that they would die ONLY IF they disobeyed. The same now. People on the earth will die only if they disobey God.