What's wrong with being gay?

[Daedalus X]

This thread is a continuation of an off topic conversation from here.

First, I think that we all agree that it's important to promote understanding, respect, and equality for all individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. Everyone should be treated with dignity and allowed to express their identity without fear of discrimination or harm.


Question for debate is LGTBQIA2S+ a harmless social contagion, or are there serious unintended consequences awaiting the individuals and societies that are going down this road?

[Clownboat]

Q: Sir did you not accused me of equating bulling with physical assault and stealing? (Yes/no question)

Yes, the bullying instances that you presented were the crimes of assault and theft already. I would love for you to provide examples of bullying that are not a crime, but should be, but you refuse.

Bulling people online or at school/work is evil and malevolent. I want evil, malevolent people to be punished. Bulling needs to be punished. That is a sensible think to want.

I agree, your words sounds sensible, they have from the start. Such virtue in them! This is why I continue to ask you as to what you want to be a crime that isn't already. For example, assault and theft are already crimes. How can I support your cause if you don't even seem to understand it yourself?

I want bulling laws to exist in my country.

And I want world hunger to be no more!
And I want all diseases to be cured!
Can you explain these laws that you want to remove the virtue signaling?

Wouldn't it be fair for you to ask me how we would go about solving world hunger for example? Imagine I couldn't come up with anything, yet kept informing those around me that I want world hunger to be no more. Surely you would note the virtue signaling even though you agree with me that you also don't like that humans starve. That is what is happening here in regards to bullying.

The same way I want for example to be laws for same sex marriages in my country.

It's not the same though. Same sex laws allow state recognition of same sex marriages.
Now do the same for these bullying laws that you want please? Surely you have something in mind right? You're not just here to sound virtuous, right?

You were arguing bulling laws should not exist, that is not a crime.

Another falsehood. Cyber bullying is a crime already and so is assault and theft. What else do you want to be a crime is what I'm asking?
Specifically, we all can agree that kids will be mean. At what point does this being mean turn into the crime of bullying and law enforcement now needs to get involved?

I was arguing bulling is a crime, should be punished and laws should exist.
Q: What is happening?

You are ignoring the laws that are already in place and you are pretending that we don't/can't punish bullies.
We can and we do, but you want more and are unable to articulate what more you want.
Person A: Clownboat, how would you go about solving world hunger?
Clownboat: I want world hunger solved! <---- This would be virtue signaling.

You keep repeating same questions to all the talking points.
You are making me give up debating on this forum.
Such poor debate form.

You are an online bully. Your online bullying is ineffective on me for reasons you have supplied.
I don't think about you outside of forming these replies, you don't enter my world ever, outside of this debate. Therefore, your actions that would be bullying to some, are not effective on me. You're still an online bully though and society should shame you, not put you in a cage IMO.

What are your thoughts on the behavior you have shown here in this thread? Let me guess, you think you are innocent? Now, if you had assaulted me or stolen from me, it would have been clear that you would be committing a crime before engaging in either. The same cannot be said for bullying. For example, it's sometimes a crime to go online and call someone a moron or to disparage their debate form. Is it sometimes a crime to assault or steal from another? You ignore this issue, but if we only care about sounding virtuous, then I would like to join in and announce to everyone, that I want bullying to be no more!

I also want world hunger to be no more and I want all diseases to be cured. Don't ask me specifics or I'll call you names and insult you. Something online bullies do... except for when they do it and it is not bullying.

[Clownboat]

You acknowledge cyber bullying, but not bullying?

I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.

Cyber bullying?
.......so you're finally coming round after all!

This has been my position from the start. That you seem me as finally coming around is something you will need to look inward about.

[Clownboat]

You acknowledge cyber bullying, but not bullying?

I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.

Cyber bullying?
.......so you're finally coming round after all!

It's more changing like the weather. Feels almost like my consciousness got into another parallel, alternative reality.

Readers, ask yourselves:
Does it make bullying worse or better if bullies would gather together and encourage each others poor behavior? Perhaps that is a mechanism for when being mean becomes the crime of bullying?
Such behavior it is the opposite of my stance where we need good men and women to step in to abolish such behavior.

The fact that both of these debaters now seem to have missed my stance on bullying is again something they need to look inward about. If either of them were paying attention, they would understand just how much we actually agree and I'm just trying to figure out what they want that they don't already have. Perhaps we would even agree on that, but I'm too busy being a moron with poor debate tactics apparently!

[Clownboat]

I honestly can't understand your confusion about this.

If I shove someone's head into a toilet, I commit assault. If I steal from them, I commit theft. If I intimidate or threaten another online, I'm guilty of cyber bullying. What else are we arguing as to become a criminal act? The answer seems to be 'bullying', which then requires addressing how a person would know that they might be guilty of committing said crime before hand.

For example, say you're on a debate forum and you continue to call your fellow debater a moron. At what point are you guilty of being a bully and should being a bully be a crime in itself? If the explanation is that the other person is weaker or what have you, then I must ask how that could be known ahead of time.

If the explanation is, "I don't know, I just want bullying to be abolished", then let me join in on this virtuous claim as I also would like there to be no bullies.
I also don't want there to be any murderers and I want world hunger abolished.

Before Cyberbullying became a law, what was the discussion?

I do not claim to know.

It's often not just the act that is being discussed, but what must be done. For example, schools may be required to document the acts in a certain way, they may be required to elevate those things to a higher authority, etc.

If they are going to make criminal claims, they better! Surely you agree?

Laws aren't just "don't do that!." They include how one is supposed to mange the process and reach a conclusion that is acceptable society; all parties.

And to the heart of the problem. At what point does being mean equal the crime of being a bully? Is it the 4th time someone is called a moron online, or only if the person being called the moron is considered weaker and it took place more than once (does twice suffice)? Should we really just leave it to a higher power to decide and damn those accused of being a bully that may in fact be the victim of it?

To clarify... I would be against alexxcJRO being punished for the unkind things he has said numerous times during this debate, but what if I got emotional about this and decided that the best way to get back at him is to appeal to some higher authority to see if I can convince them to make alexxcJRO a bully for them to then convict?
Higher authority: "Did he assault you or steal from you?"
Clownboat: "No, but I want him punished because I of how I feel?" (I'm uncomfortable with this. I'm not uncomfortable if someone actually commits assault or theft. We all agree that we should punish for such crimes).

State anti-bullying laws
If your child is being bullied at school, the first line of defense is your state’s anti-bullying law. All 50 states have anti-bullying laws. These laws often have the strongest protections for students. And they can help put an immediate stop to the bullying.

A typical state anti-bullying law requires a school to report, document and investigate bullying within a specific number of days. It also requires the school to take action to stop it. Many state laws list consequences for bullies. Some have a process for offering services like counseling to the victim and the bully.

I'm all for having it remain to be a crime to cyber bully. I do not argue to abolish cyber bullying. I would prefer that society deals with bullies, but when it can be shown to equal cyber bullying, well... they made their bed and they need to sleep in it.

Would calling someone a moron online numerous times ever be considered cyber bullying?

I really, really don't understand your issue with this discussion. When you say "what should become criminal that isn't already?"

What behavior should become a criminal act (within the topic we are having of course)? I'm not sure how to be more succinct or clear.
You are mistaken to think I have an issue with the discussion about abolishing bullying itself. It is one I have been trying to foster here with alexxcJRO. I would love for bullying to be no more and acknowledge instances of it and ask where it is lacking (what else should be criminal?).

In place of answers to the questions, I'm getting called names and how I debate gets discussed instead. Is there a point that this could become cyber bullying and when is that point reached so that alexxcJRO can avoid committing a crime? Or is it too late for him already?

But, i think it's very clear that - like cyber bullying - there is a new recognition to the harm it causes. It used to be thought that bullying was normal, and people thought it made people grow tough skin, but that has been completely debunked: bullying damages people for life, and negatively affects the bully (they become more callous and defensive, earn less, lower education, etc.).
That is, it's bad for society - so it seems a worthy thing to strengthen laws against bullying. However, when we have Conservatives who reject scientific findings and simply regurgitate their mantra, progress is slow.

There is nothing here for me to respond to, but at least you got your dig in, in regards to those on the other end of your political spectrum.

[alexxcJRO]

Q: Sir did you not accused me of equating bulling with physical assault and stealing? (Yes/no question)

Yes

And you are wrong. For I am not.
Someone X: "Big Mac includes a medium portion of fries, a juice and a double cheeseburger".
Saying Big Mac includes those 3 things does not mean someone X is equating Big Mac with a "medium portion of fries" or with a "double cheeseburger".
Please address the analogy.

I agree, your words sounds sensible, they have from the start. Such virtue in them! This is why I continue to ask you as to what you want to be a crime that isn't already. For example, assault and theft are already crimes. How can I support your cause if you don't even seem to understand it yourself?

Dude torture laws analogy. We have been here already.
Please don't ignore my point.

And I want world hunger to be no more!
And I want all diseases to be cured!
Can you explain these laws that you want to remove the virtue signaling?
Wouldn't it be fair for you to ask me how we would go about solving world hunger for example? Imagine I couldn't come up with anything, yet kept informing those around me that I want world hunger to be no more. Surely you would note the virtue signaling even though you agree with me that you also don't like that humans starve. That is what is happening here in regards to bullying.

Irrelevant personal comment. You asked me a q I answered.

It's not the same though. Same sex laws allow state recognition of same sex marriages.
Now do the same for these bullying laws that you want please? Surely you have something in mind right? You're not just here to sound virtuous, right?

Firstly there should be laws for bulling in schools. There is been some initiatives to make such laws as late of 2023 in Romania.

Another falsehood. Cyber bullying is a crime already and so is assault and theft. What else do you want to be a crime is what I'm asking?
Specifically, we all can agree that kids will be mean. At what point does this being mean turn into the crime of bullying and law enforcement now needs to get involved?
You are ignoring the laws that are already in place and you are pretending that we don't/can't punish bullies.
We can and we do, but you want more and are unable to articulate what more you want.
Person A: Clownboat, how would you go about solving world hunger?
Clownboat: I want world hunger solved! <---- This would be virtue signaling.

1.
Common. This is ridiculous.
You were arguing that I am bulling you in a supposed clever way to show how its not ok to have laws for bulling(online).
Suddenly in 255 you have sneaked in "cyber bullying" beside assault or theft where before we only had you mentioning assault or theft.
Now you pretend like that never happened.
2.
I am confused.
Q: So do you now agree its ok to have laws for bulling(online) but not laws for bulling that occurs in schools?

You are an online bully. Your online bullying is ineffective on me for reasons you have supplied.
I don't think about you outside of forming these replies, you don't enter my world ever, outside of this debate. Therefore, your actions that would be bullying to some, are not effective on me. You're still an online bully though and society should shame you, not put you in a cage IMO.
What are your thoughts on the behavior you have shown here in this thread? Let me guess, you think you are innocent? Now, if you had assaulted me or stolen from me, it would have been clear that you would be committing a crime before engaging in either. The same cannot be said for bullying. For example, it's sometimes a crime to go online and call someone a moron or to disparage their debate form. Is it sometimes a crime to assault or steal from another? You ignore this issue, but if we only care about sounding virtuous, then I would like to join in and announce to everyone, that I want bullying to be no more!
I also want world hunger to be no more and I want all diseases to be cured. Don't ask me specifics or I'll call you names and insult you. Something online bullies do... except for when they do it and it is not bullying.

Keep repeating the same nonsense which was already debunked before countless times.
Ridicule its not bulling.
You have ridiculed yourself. There is no one sided situation.
You are not in a state of fear and in a less favorable position where I being in a more favorable position would use that position to hurt you.
We have been over this. The conditions for bulling are not meet.

[oldbadger]

You acknowledge cyber bullying, but not bullying?

I have argued to punish for crimes from the start and I have addressed the crimes of assault, theft and cyber bullying specifically.

Cyber bullying?
.......so you're finally coming round after all!

This has been my position from the start. That you seem me as finally coming around is something you will need to look inward about.

Now you just need to decide how cyber bullying is so different from other kinds of bullying.

[Clownboat]

Firstly there should be laws for bulling in schools. There is been some initiatives to make such laws as late of 2023 in Romania.

Super! What bullying laws are you referring to that you would like us to adapt?

Suddenly in 255 you have sneaked in "cyber bullying" beside assault or theft where before we only had you mentioning assault or theft.
Now you pretend like that never happened.
2.
I am confused.

Yes, you are confused.
You brought up shoving heads in toilets, hanging kids from hooks and stealing from them specifically. None of those were cyber bullying, so therefore I did not address cyber bullying when I was addressing YOUR bullying scenarios that YOU provided, even though you now claim to not equate them (which is irrelevant and why I'm not addressing it again, but I do want a Big Mac now).
You should no longer be confused as to why cyber bullying came up after assault and theft.

Q: So do you now agree its ok to have laws for bulling(online) but not laws for bulling that occurs in schools?

We already have cyber bullying laws. What other laws are you requesting? If you would like to know if I would support a school bullying law (it appears you do), you will need to present what you have in mind, otherwise you might as well be shouting from the street corner that you want world hunger abolished.

vir·tue sig·nal·ing
noun
the public expression of opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or social conscience or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Your want is virtuous (anti bullying is virtuous), like one who would want to end world hunger. Can you explain what it is that you want to be done, or will you continue shouting from the street corner? Perhaps the law(s) you want created are something we can all support and maybe even become relevant outside of this debate (legislation specifically).

[Clownboat]

Now you just need to decide how cyber bullying is so different from other kinds of bullying.

If you would be so kind as to define what you mean by 'other kinds of bullying' the differences may be self evident enough that you won't need me to assist you.

[alexxcJRO]

Super! What bullying laws are you referring to that you would like us to adapt?

Laws for bulling(all kinds of bulling: (online, schools, work)). Mostly I was talking of my country. I already said this multiple times.

Yes, you are confused.
You brought up shoving heads in toilets, hanging kids from hooks and stealing from them specifically. None of those were cyber bullying, so therefore I did not address cyber bullying when I was addressing YOUR bullying scenarios that YOU provided, even though you now claim to not equate them (which is irrelevant and why I'm not addressing it again, but I do want a Big Mac now).
You should no longer be confused as to why cyber bullying came up after assault and theft.

1.
My analogy clearly demonstrate I was not equating bullying with physical assault, stealing.
You are avoiding addressing the analogy like the plague. So funny.

Torture laws analogy also support my argument.

2.
Common. This is ridiculous.
You were arguing that I am bulling you in a supposed clever way to show how its not ok to have laws for bulling(online).
Suddenly in 255 you have sneaked in "cyber bullying" beside assault or theft where before we only had you mentioning assault or theft. Suddenly its ok to have laws for bulling.
Now you pretend like that never happened.
Dude you never mentioned cyber bullying before post 255.
I argued bulling needs to be punished. Both online and in schools. You were not.

We already have cyber bullying laws. What other laws are you requesting? If you would like to know if I would support a school bullying law (it appears you do), you will need to present what you have in mind, otherwise you might as well be shouting from the street corner that you want world hunger abolished.

vir·tue sig·nal·ing
noun
the public expression of opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or social conscience or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

Your want is virtuous (anti bullying is virtuous), like one who would want to end world hunger. Can you explain what it is that you want to be done, or will you continue shouting from the street corner? Perhaps the law(s) you want created are something we can all support and maybe even become relevant outside of this debate (legislation specifically).

You keep moving the goal post and ignore anything I say.

Please answer my q please:

Q: So do you now agree its ok to have laws for bulling(online) but not laws for bulling that occurs in schools?

Q: If yes why?

Q: If yes now why were you arguing against it before? What is happening?

[oldbadger]

Now you just need to decide how cyber bullying is so different from other kinds of bullying.

If you would be so kind as to define what you mean by 'other kinds of bullying' the differences may be self evident enough that you won't need me to assist you.

But you don't believe in laws to stop 'bullying', and here you are, contradicting your own viewpoint. After all, bullying is bullying, whether on IT media, at school, in the workplace or anywhere else.

So come on, tell us how you managed to separate out one from all the others.